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A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

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Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possible reasons, approximately in order of increasing complexity: * You were invited, and it would be awkward to leave too early. * You're someone's +1, and it would be awkward to leave them behind. * It's a party for you, and it would be ungrateful to leave. * You're intoxicated, and it's not safe for you to drive right now, so you need to wait until you sober up. * The host put in a lot of effort to arrange the pa…

Sure, but the example being portrayed seems to be focused on a party where one feels no obligation to stay (for friendship, socialization, intoxication, or future expectation): --- "You are at a party, and you get bored. You say “This isn’t doing it for me anymore. I’d rather be someplace else. I’d rather be home asleep. The people I wanted to talk to aren’t here.” For whatever reason, the party fails to meet some th…

For me this doesn't sound confusing. Last time I was at a gathering, what was described (bored but not leaving, waiting for coats) happened. If it were a bookstore or coffee shop, i would have left the moment i got bored.

Maybe i'm susceptible to group pressure. I know a lot of people are.

The funny thing is, afterwards I was halpy that I left as one of the latest.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This indeed. Basic mammal brain stuff. Herding instinct is just as strong as the others.

Well there are exceptions like Steve Jobs or Nietzsche.

I guess some people have sheepdog instinct, the other side of herding.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#53
post #15
post #2

Reposts are fine after a year or so (this is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ) and it's good to have the classics reappear from time to time as the newer cohorts of users don't know about them yet. Related past threads... others? Shirky.com is gone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31038660 - April 2022 (143 comments, including from clay_shirky - perhaps he'll show up in this one too!) A Gr…

Have you considered adding some notes to the guidelines based on articles like this? It talks about group-forming habits that on HN I'd imagine you want people alert to and then avoiding.

I'd be interested in adding anything that is (a) important and (b) not derivable from the guidelines that are already there. But I don't know what that would be. Suggestions are welcome!

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#55

Possibly (non) related - Wilfred Bion's work on group dynamics.

I tried reading Bion's Experiences in Groups (recommended in the OP), several times actually, and couldn't get far with it. Are there other things he wrote that are easier to get started with?

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#56
TLDR:

  - Social software requires designing for group success, not just individual success.
  - Software developers need to consider the sociology and anthropology of the group that will be using their software.
  - Human groups are committed to individual identity and group membership, which can lead to groups becoming their own worst enemy.
  - Group structure exists to keep a group on target, on track, on message, on charter, to keep a group focused on its own sophisticated goals and away from sliding into basic patterns.
  - Large groups require different design considerations than small groups.
  - The responsibility for defining value and defending it should be put into the hands of the group itself, rather than trying to describe everything in the software up front.
  - A core group arises that cares about the community as a whole and takes care of the social environment by encouraging good behavior and discouraging bad behavior.
  - Reputation systems are not always effective in human situations.
  - Ease of use should be designed for the group, not just the individual.
  - Conversations require dense two-way conversations, and human interaction doesn't scale up like a balloon.
generated by https://kagi.com/

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#57
post #53
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered adding some notes to the guidelines based on articles like this? It talks about group-forming habits that on HN I'd imagine you want people alert to and then avoiding.

I'd be interested in adding anything that is (a) important and (b) not derivable from the guidelines that are already there. But I don't know what that would be. Suggestions are welcome!

Some suggestions:

1. There is a lot of stuff in the HN Undocumented norms repo[0] that would be potentially good candidates.

2. Clear up some of the oft repeated norms around disagreement and downvotes. Downvotes in general (when do you get access to the downvote, what they are for, why there are no submission downvotes, etc).

3. Information about posting: reposting, file types (since only pdfs and videos are mentioned explicitly), pay walls. Add a note about year tags.

4. Info about why titles are sometimes changed automatically (since this is often confusing to people).

5. An explicit call out that bots and entirely (or almost entirely) generated comments are banned, with allowances for comments with substantial human contribution quoting eg ChatGPT output.

[0] https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#58
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm being weird about it, but what would it take to repeal the idea of social cost? If I'm being extra snippy about it, it seems like folks are not being held accountable for their feelings of social entitlement.

I think what it would take is for people to stop being social animals. I don't think the social cost is a bad thing, in and of itself. It's not a bad thing to remain at a party you don't enjoy as a kind of social gift to your friends (as long as you can remain without being a sourpuss about it). It's just another variation on how it's a good thing to take part in an activity you're not really into in order to benefit…

That's an interesting take. Can you explain what both sides are compromising on?

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#59
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested in adding anything that is (a) important and (b) not derivable from the guidelines that are already there. But I don't know what that would be. Suggestions are welcome!

Some suggestions: 1. There is a lot of stuff in the HN Undocumented norms repo[0] that would be potentially good candidates. 2. Clear up some of the oft repeated norms around disagreement and downvotes. Downvotes in general (when do you get access to the downvote, what they are for, why there are no submission downvotes, etc). 3. Information about posting: reposting, file types (since only pdfs and videos are mention…

> There is a lot of stuff in the HN Undocumented norms repo[0] that would be potentially good candidates

Specifically which items? We can't include all of them—the list would be too long. Actually https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html is too long already. The longer we make it, the less people will read, so the bar for additions needs to be high.

> Clear up some of the oft repeated norms around disagreement and downvotes

A mere rule can't clear that one up. What clicks those buttons is the reptile brain, and the reptile brain doesn't know about rules.

> Information about posting: reposting, file types (since only pdfs and videos are mentioned explicitly), pay walls. Add a note about year tags.

Reposting is in the FAQ. Re file types—which ones? pdfs and videos are the main cases, and it's important for guidelines not to be laundry lists.

Paywalls—that's an interesting case. I think it needs to remain a grey area. Not grey like https://www.color-hex.com/color/dedede, mind you—more like https://www.color-hex.com/color/676767. But not black and white like it would be if we officialized it.

> Add a note about year tags.

To me that one's on the wrong side of "what belongs in the guidelines". The current system, which leaves it to convention, moderator edits, and user comments, works fine. Every detail we add to the guidelines has a cost—it dilutes the attention people pay to the other ones.

> Info about why titles are sometimes changed automatically (since this is often confusing to people).

This is another discretion-is-the-better-part-of-valor case, like downvotes—it's too emotional to be subject to rules or explanations (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). Rather than add a rule that everyone breaks, thus weakening the entire ruleset, I'd rather leave it to work itself out in the threads.

> An explicit call out that bots and entirely (or almost entirely) generated comments are banned, with allowances for comments with substantial human contribution quoting eg ChatGPT output.

This is the one I'm closest to agreeing with, but the way you phrase it does a good job of bringing out its problems. How much generated content is ok? is it ok to just quote? and so on. I'm also not sure that it doesn't already follow from the existing guidelines, particularly the one about curious conversation.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#60

> If you were in a bookstore and you said, “I’m done,” you’d walk out. If you were in a coffee shop and said, “This is boring,” you’d walk out. > You’re sitting at a party, and you decide, “I don’t like this; I don’t want to be here.” And then you don’t leave. Wait.. what?? Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like? Is this really what normally happens?

Humans don't always act rationally. In the moment, you often just do things (or don't do things). Afterwards you may try to rationalize it, but in the moment you don't or you can't. Sometimes you just stay, as simply as that.

Of course, maybe you're a person who always behaves rationally (or at least imagines they do). But people like that are uncommon. Most of us just don't behave rationally all the time.

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