Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 161 posts

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#111

Post by mikea1 »

wrenky wrote: post #90
deverly wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know how much their wages are to calculate their pay discrepancy that their employers are cheating them nor do I have their income statements. The employers’ responsibility is being put on to the customers. And then the customers are the assholes for guessing wrong.

Its not that employers are cheating them- Thats the job and what it pays. Most waiters/waitresses are payed below minimum wage and make up the difference with tips. Its something like $3/hr on average, its even accounted for in the tax code. Is this your fault that the industry as a whole legally shifts that responsibility onto the consumer? Definitely not! Does that make a person an asshole for knowingly paying less…

> Most waiters/waitresses are payed below minimum wage and make up the difference with tips.

It's slightly more complicated: hourly wage is the greater of ($3 + tips) or (standard minimum wage). So, the effective minimum wage is still the standard minimum wage.

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#112

Post by Night_Thastus »

Fernicia wrote: post #101
Night_Thastus wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at it a bit backwards. This is not "employees are greedy, want money for nothing". This is a case of "employees barely paid enough to get food each week, survive off tips". People forget that minimum wage comes out to around $15k a year. Even $15 an hour is only $30k. In almost all of the country, that's not enough for the cheapest rent, upkeep on a cheap car, food, taxes and other bills. Excessive tip…

Why is it then that we leave the greatest tips at the fanciest restaurants? Shouldn't it be reversed? We leave $5 tips at diners but we leave $100+ tips at Michelin star restaurants.

Because people aren't logical. Tipping is not a scientific, carefully crafted way of doing things. It's culture and social behavior mixed together over many, many years.

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#113

Post by hotpotamus »

orev wrote: post #86

I was just at an airport and bought a pre-packed sandwich from the refrigerator, and the POS was setup to ask for tips! I have sympathy for workers at places like this, as I know they don’t get paid much, but this is probably the last straw for me. When I see stuff like this, it increases my aggravation level, and I’m sure it has the same effect on others. Retail workers already get treated badly by customers, and th…

Without getting into a whole thing about automating away peoples' jobs, buying pre-packaged sandwiches from a machine is a technical challenge that I believe was solved in the 19th century and there was a little automat fad surrounding it. Certainly it's how I buy lunch on many a day when I don't want to have to deal with social interaction.

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#114

Post by deverly »

wrenky wrote: post #90
deverly wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know how much their wages are to calculate their pay discrepancy that their employers are cheating them nor do I have their income statements. The employers’ responsibility is being put on to the customers. And then the customers are the assholes for guessing wrong.

Its not that employers are cheating them- Thats the job and what it pays. Most waiters/waitresses are payed below minimum wage and make up the difference with tips. Its something like $3/hr on average, its even accounted for in the tax code. Is this your fault that the industry as a whole legally shifts that responsibility onto the consumer? Definitely not! Does that make a person an asshole for knowingly paying less…

And the difference in their pay and minimum wage is? And the difference between their pay and living wage is? Maybe the employee it’s well compensated?

Again, the customer is asked to guess the restaurant’s payroll and make up the difference with the market wage. How does one know if they are paying too little? Or too much? Or just right? Maybe customers don’t want to play the guessing game.

Pay a competitive livable wage and raise the prices on the menu for the customer to determine the value of the product and stop asking/begging for tips. Done!

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#115

Post by disruptiveink »

yowzadave wrote: post #102
disruptiveink wrote: post #71

As a non-US citizen/resident, I can't wait for Americans to finally riot against tipping, just so they stop doing it abroad. A shame that it had to take comical proportions domestically for people to start questioning it. Americans tipping abroad while on holidays ruins service for everyone that isn't American – as a non-American you are guaranteed to get worse service than a American in touristy places (and sometime…

> hospitality obviously optimises for being extra nice to Americans and treat everyone else with apathy Maybe this is how the tipping practice got started in the first place?

Ignoring for a moment the 20% premium, the issue is that in the US, (mostly) everyone is American. Unless you're a regular, hospitality has no way of telling whether you're a good tipper or a bad tipper. There may be "tells" or "feelings", but that's the extent of it. So when you walk into a place, you're going to get the same service as the next guy. Your logic may track for regulars (a repeat customer may tip to get nicer service next time), but that's not the phenomenon that I was describing.

If you're in a touristy place and you're not American, if the place in particular has seen enough Americans, they're going to treat you badly because in their mind, you're taking up the table of an American tourist which would give them a lot of free money for doing the same work. I, as a non-American tourist who has never been in that particular place before, have no way of opting out of the "bad service mode" and opting into the "American service mode" – I obviously don't have an American accent. I obviously can't state "I'm going to tip you 20%!" at the beginning of the service – I'd look like a deranged person.

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#116

Post by peteradio »

corey_moncure wrote: post #93
Night_Thastus wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at it a bit backwards. This is not "employees are greedy, want money for nothing". This is a case of "employees barely paid enough to get food each week, survive off tips". People forget that minimum wage comes out to around $15k a year. Even $15 an hour is only $30k. In almost all of the country, that's not enough for the cheapest rent, upkeep on a cheap car, food, taxes and other bills. Excessive tip…

I don't think so. I'll put the food in a bag, grab my napkins and parmesan packets, and ring myself up. Then I'll tip myself the 20% or whatever ridiculous margin multiplied by my already overly-inflated bill. That employee doesn't do anything for me. She does many things for the sake of the restaurant, but not a single thing for me that I need or care about. As a bystander to the employment relationship, it's not my…

It's definitely a bit messed up but tipping is all that keeps many rural restaurants alive. Without tipping there is no way to asymmetrically reap from rich and poor and you need both.

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#117

Post by Night_Thastus »

doublepg23 wrote: post #99
Night_Thastus wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at it a bit backwards. This is not "employees are greedy, want money for nothing". This is a case of "employees barely paid enough to get food each week, survive off tips". People forget that minimum wage comes out to around $15k a year. Even $15 an hour is only $30k. In almost all of the country, that's not enough for the cheapest rent, upkeep on a cheap car, food, taxes and other bills. Excessive tip…

> Excessive tips are the only way a lot of people working in the service industry survive at all. When the topic comes up on Reddit the people overwhelmingly against getting rid of tipping are waiters. Heck, bartenders are even more vehemently against the idea.

They're against the idea because a world where they get that pay consistently instead of by tips seems fictional. People who advocate for getting rid of tipping sound like they're trying to take away a good chunk of their income.

Plus, instead of thinking about potentially low tipping periods and how averages work, they think about missing out on that sweet $300 tip they might make at some point if they get lucky.

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#118

Post by peteradio »

disruptiveink wrote: post #115
yowzadave wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hospitality obviously optimises for being extra nice to Americans and treat everyone else with apathy Maybe this is how the tipping practice got started in the first place?

Ignoring for a moment the 20% premium, the issue is that in the US, (mostly) everyone is American. Unless you're a regular, hospitality has no way of telling whether you're a good tipper or a bad tipper. There may be "tells" or "feelings", but that's the extent of it. So when you walk into a place, you're going to get the same service as the next guy. Your logic may track for regulars (a repeat customer may tip to ge…

Maybe try wearing a cowboy hat and imitate a high rolling Texan.

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#119

Post by mindslight »

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #105

Tipping is a backwards system, honestly. No real minimum wage laws, so pass what should be the employer cost on to the customer? It's even crappier for workers when bosses dictate that tips should be pooled or whatever. Honestly it should be more regulated and the minimum wage should be ate least reasonable.

> It's even crappier for workers when bosses dictate that tips should be pooled or whatever.

Your comment made me think - I wonder if a way of reigning in this weaponization of tipping culture would be state laws for transparency of where tips actually go. Let's say anywhere that solicits tips must clearly post how that money is divided up (on the menu, tip jar, POS terminal, prominent signs, etc). Whether it all goes to your server, whether it's pooled between servers, pooled with the whole staff, whether any doesn't go to employees for any reason, etc.

I'd think the servers who actually benefit from tips (individually tipped at nice places) would be fine with this, while the places where it's become a general guilt-tax that just gets averaged out and used as a substitute for wages would be laid bare.

Re: Tipping at self-checkout has customers crying ‘emotional blackmail’

#120

Post by yongjik »

Night_Thastus wrote: post #59
corey_moncure wrote: post #34

I took my wife out to a fancy steakhouse over the weekend and remembered what "service" is supposed to be. Our waiter poured my wine, cut up our steak table side and served us, cracked pepper over our salad, went above and beyond in every way to ensure that we were comfortable and satisfied. I gladly tipped him 20% on $300 and would do so again. On the other hand, I left $10 on top of a $50 takeout order at a local I…

You're looking at it a bit backwards. This is not "employees are greedy, want money for nothing". This is a case of "employees barely paid enough to get food each week, survive off tips". People forget that minimum wage comes out to around $15k a year. Even $15 an hour is only $30k. In almost all of the country, that's not enough for the cheapest rent, upkeep on a cheap car, food, taxes and other bills. Excessive tip…

I think you're misinterpreting GP's intention. People generally don't want the tips to be gone so that they pay less. People want the tips to be included in the price so that when they buy something they know how much they're paying.

In the current system restauranteurs skimp on wages because they know workers make up for it with tips and hence are willing to work for dirt-cheap wages. But it's not like the restaurant business actually benefit from it, because supply and demand is still determined by how much patrons pay in total. If they charge more up front (along with everyone else), and just give a larger portion to workers, they'll still make the same amount of money.

We're stuck in a shitty local minimum that benefits nobody.

Post reply on HN