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A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

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Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#31

Post by ajb »

roenxi wrote: post #14
JellyBeanThief wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possible reasons, approximately in order of increasing complexity: * You were invited, and it would be awkward to leave too early. * You're someone's +1, and it would be awkward to leave them behind. * It's a party for you, and it would be ungrateful to leave. * You're intoxicated, and it's not safe for you to drive right now, so you need to wait until you sober up. * The host put in a lot of effort to arrange the pa…

* You may not have ever seen a lynch mob form, but your genes are very nervous about developing a reputation as the least loyal person in the group. For reasons you don't understand, you display social signals that the group is important to you.

I think the fear is not of a lynch mob - we evolved in situations where we relied on the group for survival, and ostracism meant a much higher risk of death, whether from predation or starvation. Alternatively, any violence, even between individuals, had a higher risk of death due to bacterial infection etc.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#32

Post by rtpg »

nicky0 wrote: post #18
kstenerud wrote: post #9

> If you were in a bookstore and you said, “I’m done,” you’d walk out. If you were in a coffee shop and said, “This is boring,” you’d walk out. > You’re sitting at a party, and you decide, “I don’t like this; I don’t want to be here.” And then you don’t leave. Wait.. what?? Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like? Is this really what normally happens?

Behaving unauthentically is a form of masking that some of is learn to do because we receive the msssage that certain behaviour is not accepted.

I think it's important to distinguish what one might call "inauthentic behavior" and "behavior that goes beyond ones own personal preferences".

The party example is a good point. A very common thing is to go to a friends party as a show of support for their thing, and to, for lack of a better word, have numbers be good. But it's not inauthentic to support your friend's thing! Sometimes you do a thing because it's for someone else.

And when the wave of departures happen... there is a mix of "I also wanted to leave", but "oh I guess it's time to leave" is another, and "oh I'm not totally done but it's starting to end so" are all on the spectrum of possibilities, and ones that I've held.

I think this group behavior is ... authentic and human. Acting on what you are thinking, at its extreme, is kind of indistinguishable from having no impulse control.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#33

Post by aaron695 »

kstenerud wrote: post #9

> If you were in a bookstore and you said, “I’m done,” you’d walk out. If you were in a coffee shop and said, “This is boring,” you’d walk out. > You’re sitting at a party, and you decide, “I don’t like this; I don’t want to be here.” And then you don’t leave. Wait.. what?? Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like? Is this really what normally happens?

[dead]

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#34

Post by MichaelZuo »

HPsquared wrote: post #19
roenxi wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* You may not have ever seen a lynch mob form, but your genes are very nervous about developing a reputation as the least loyal person in the group. For reasons you don't understand, you display social signals that the group is important to you.

This indeed. Basic mammal brain stuff. Herding instinct is just as strong as the others.

Well there are exceptions like Steve Jobs or Nietzsche.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#35

Post by vorpalhex »

JellyBeanThief wrote: post #11
kstenerud wrote: post #9

> If you were in a bookstore and you said, “I’m done,” you’d walk out. If you were in a coffee shop and said, “This is boring,” you’d walk out. > You’re sitting at a party, and you decide, “I don’t like this; I don’t want to be here.” And then you don’t leave. Wait.. what?? Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like? Is this really what normally happens?

Possible reasons, approximately in order of increasing complexity: * You were invited, and it would be awkward to leave too early. * You're someone's +1, and it would be awkward to leave them behind. * It's a party for you, and it would be ungrateful to leave. * You're intoxicated, and it's not safe for you to drive right now, so you need to wait until you sober up. * The host put in a lot of effort to arrange the pa…

> You're a linchpin in your friend group--when you don't hang out, they tend not to hang with each other, and this is bad for at least one of them.

This is a trap.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#36

Post by JohnFen »

kstenerud wrote: post #9

> If you were in a bookstore and you said, “I’m done,” you’d walk out. If you were in a coffee shop and said, “This is boring,” you’d walk out. > You’re sitting at a party, and you decide, “I don’t like this; I don’t want to be here.” And then you don’t leave. Wait.. what?? Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like? Is this really what normally happens?

> Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like?

Many sorts of parties involve a social obligation and leaving them early comes with a social cost.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#37

Post by compiler-guy »

nicky0 wrote: post #18
kstenerud wrote: post #9

> If you were in a bookstore and you said, “I’m done,” you’d walk out. If you were in a coffee shop and said, “This is boring,” you’d walk out. > You’re sitting at a party, and you decide, “I don’t like this; I don’t want to be here.” And then you don’t leave. Wait.. what?? Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like? Is this really what normally happens?

Behaving unauthentically is a form of masking that some of is learn to do because we receive the msssage that certain behaviour is not accepted.

"Always be yourself, but always be your better self."

People are complicated animals, just because I have a personal preference or a personal tendency, doesn't mean it is inauthentic to exercise self-control in pursuit of a larger, different goal.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#38

Post by kelseyfrog »

JohnFen wrote: post #36
kstenerud wrote: post #9

> If you were in a bookstore and you said, “I’m done,” you’d walk out. If you were in a coffee shop and said, “This is boring,” you’d walk out. > You’re sitting at a party, and you decide, “I don’t like this; I don’t want to be here.” And then you don’t leave. Wait.. what?? Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like? Is this really what normally happens?

> Why would someone stick around at a party they don't like? Many sorts of parties involve a social obligation and leaving them early comes with a social cost.

Maybe I'm being weird about it, but what would it take to repeal the idea of social cost? If I'm being extra snippy about it, it seems like folks are not being held accountable for their feelings of social entitlement.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#39

Post by mooreds »

asksomeoneelse wrote: post #28
mooreds wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the post? His whole point is that the group exists apart from the individuality of each member, and can have separate goals and methods. And that you can't study both the members and the group at the same time.

I think GP was making a math joke; "a group is a non-empty set [...] in such a way that [...] every element has an inverse". [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_(mathematics)

Oops, thanks for the clarification. My bad.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy [pdf] (2005)

#40

Post by kelseyfrog »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #22
nicky0 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Behaving unauthentically is a form of masking that some of is learn to do because we receive the msssage that certain behaviour is not accepted.

> Behaving unauthentically I feel that people, these days, are more free to express their "inner voice," more often. In some cases, this is good. In others, it is bad. One of the rationalizations that I hear, for "hate jockeys," is "Hey, they're just saying what everyone thinks!". There's a reason that we don't say everything that we think. We're actually experiencing object lessons, in exactly this, in society, thes…

The slightly more nuanced version of this is: Behave authentically when you're pro-social and mask when you're tendency is anti-social. The trick that's happening is that pro-social behavior is being applauded for it's authenticity when in fact, it's just pro-social.
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