Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…
Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
71–80 of 254 posts
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're saying academic prestige is a Veblen good, like a handbag? Are you sure?
The comparison between publications and handbags is cute... but yes, it falls apart for exactly the reason you mention. A prestigious journal would still be prestigious if they made publication free.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#73Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…
> Louis Vouitton sells a handbag for $2k. Is it worth $2k? You could say no, that any other bag would be just as useful. But value isn't utility alone. People find that the bag is worth the price because of the prestige that the brand imbues the owner with. Change the analogy so that the customers design and mostly manufacture the bag.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consider you are another researcher (not the one who has just published). You may want to keep up to date with your field. This is good to do and it helps foster new ideas for now and for future proposals. There will be a selection of journals that are relevant to you and they will publish work that, generally, will be tiered by either the scope or impact of the journal. Journal A publishes a lot of papers you find v…
Maybe I am wrong here, but shouldn't the quality metric be whether it acts as a basis for practical applications? As far as I understand, research is supposed to give theoretical answers and frameworks. X works like this. Y doesn't work like that. This knowledge should then be applied to the real world and will be prooved wrong or right. Maybe a silly thought, but I suppose pre 1800 science didn't have to pay such fe…
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consider you are another researcher (not the one who has just published). You may want to keep up to date with your field. This is good to do and it helps foster new ideas for now and for future proposals. There will be a selection of journals that are relevant to you and they will publish work that, generally, will be tiered by either the scope or impact of the journal. Journal A publishes a lot of papers you find v…
Maybe I am wrong here, but shouldn't the quality metric be whether it acts as a basis for practical applications? As far as I understand, research is supposed to give theoretical answers and frameworks. X works like this. Y doesn't work like that. This knowledge should then be applied to the real world and will be prooved wrong or right. Maybe a silly thought, but I suppose pre 1800 science didn't have to pay such fe…
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#76You cannot really blame Elsevier here. They are just taking advantage of a dysfunctional academic system. The cost of reviewing a paper properly is high, but academia is not paying that cost by simply not doing a proper review. If the money saved by cutting Elsevier out (in this case £2700 per accepted paper) would actually be added to a pool out of which reviews are financed, I would see the point. But as it is, the…
Of course you can blame Elsevier, you can blame the system too, but that's no excuse in exploiting the system and even worse the people.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#77Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…
You’ve pretty much nailed it. I anticipate you’ll be downvoted for it. Academic research (one of the big complainers about the cost) could fix this easily - stop rewarding scientists for publishing in those journals! Pick other, less expensive, prestigious enough journals, and academics will publish in those. But the system can’t be broken easily. The prestige of many journals has been developed over decades or in so…
From what I know, it's the politicians that rewards scientists for publishing in those journals. At least here in Norway, universities have been competing for funding[1], and publishing in higher-impact ("more prestigious") journals counts for more compared to lower-impact journals.
[1]: https://www.regjeringen.no/globalassets/upload/kd/vedlegg/uh...
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#78Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…
It's reasonable to focus on one example of a general problem and try to solve the sub-problem first.
> Of course, the customers complain about the price, so the question is, why not just buy something cheaper? Because that would defeat the whole point, which is to buy prestige. You can't just pay a kid in high school to run a web server for PDFs and say you have a prestigious journal. You have to have a brand that carries prestige, like that Louis Vouitton bag.
This is conflating two things. A Louis Vuitton bag is a Veblen good because people pay more for it because paying more for it demonstrates that they have a lot of money. Publishing in an Elsevier journal is not a Veblen good, because the researcher wants the prestige of producing research of sufficient quality to appear in an Elsevier journal. They don't want the prestige of paying a high publication fee.
Anyway, I'm a computer science researcher. Every paper I've ever written is on Arxiv, and most of them also appeared in archival conferences. Paywall journals are an anti-signal for paper quality in my field. I wrote one paper that appeared in a journal, and that publishing/editing process was nothing but a waste of time to get the material into the journal's format. The publisher added nothing. The continued existence of publishers is a historical accident specific to fields that started when they served a purpose (distributing a hard-copy journal) and have lacked respected senior researchers with enough entrepreneurial vim to set up their own open-access alternatives.
The reviewing process and name recognition is the thing keeping those publishers alive. None of that is provided by the publisher, it's provided by the researchers who work inside it. Earlier I wrote "the researcher wants the prestige of producing research of sufficient quality to appear in an Elsevier journal". That's not really true, they want "the prestige of producing research of sufficient quality to [be accepted by the kinds of reviewers who would reviewer for an] Elsevier journal". ML research has sort of solved this problem via conferences, which are imperfect, but seem substantially better than the journal review process I can see my peers in other fields navigating.
Free markets are cool and all, but sometimes they screw up, especially when they interact with governments and institutions. Publishers currently live in this sweet spot, but science really doesn't need them to.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#79You cannot really blame Elsevier here. They are just taking advantage of a dysfunctional academic system. The cost of reviewing a paper properly is high, but academia is not paying that cost by simply not doing a proper review. If the money saved by cutting Elsevier out (in this case £2700 per accepted paper) would actually be added to a pool out of which reviews are financed, I would see the point. But as it is, the…
>They are just taking advantage of a dysfunctional academic system. Of course you can blame Elsevier, you can blame the system too, but that's no excuse in exploiting the system and even worse the people.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They also manage the review process (screen papers, find reviewers, communicate with authors and reviewers), They do not. That's the editor's job, and Elsevier journal editors are unpaid volunteers -- as the Guardian article correctly pointed out. > A half-decent review can easily take 3-4 hours, and a typical paper gets 2-3 reviews, so something like 8-12 hours of PhD-level labor which are not currently compensate…
Who pays for those hours?
But those of us that need continuing education (needed for maintenance of certifications) can get some hours of credit for it.
Certifications are more the domain of practicing professional scientists though, so it doesn't really help much in typical academia.