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Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

theguardian.com

51–60 of 254 posts

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#51

I wonder who still pays for this, if all you need is a single playment - then it's online on www.sci-hub.se and free forever. So I'm not sure why people don't vote with their feet (well, mouse clicks) regarding Elsevier. Of course, copying and stealing is very bad.

first, sometimes there are publication fees on the author end.

on the buyer end, university libraries buy huge bundles of journal subscriptions for millions per year to give access to everyone at their institution. this is essentially enterprise sales and the publishers are really good at it using all the typical tactics for winning lucrative contracts.

and the universities don't want to just tell their researchers to use sci-hub, although I think e.g. UC Berkeley essentially did this with a nudge and a wink a few years ago during negotiations.

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#52
post #37

Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…

I like your point but let's dive another layer down the rabbithole. Why do researchers need to buy prestige in the first place? Academic research should be done for the sake of advancement of knowledge and of course the people doing it should make a good living out of it. How does buying prestige come into play here? (just asking)

The people who need to evaluate academics (both individuals and institutions) for purposes of funding, promotions, tracking goals, etc, can't really do it well on their own (you need to have domain-specific knowledge to be able to pass independent judgement, you can't have domain-specific knowledge in all the disciplines you need to manage, and you can't/don't trust self-evaluations) so they need some independents oracle that gives any metrics that are at least roughly correlated with output and quality even if they inevitably get gamed; and it needs to be something that can be independently evaluated cheaply and simply, so that it can be written into some formal criteria and there won't be a legal dispute whether a research outcome is "sufficiently good" or not, or whether applicant A has "more points" than applicant B on some objective scale that doesn't put the burden of personally proving that on some official who realistically can't do that anyway.

Publishers, prestige of publication venue (including their ranking in citation metrics), indexes like Web of Science/Scopus/etc all provide this function to the administrators of scientific funding, who want (and need) to evaluate academic prestige.

The other need is for a filter to allow a researcher to not access most of what is published. There is generally a problem of too much "research-like work" that is impossible to read all of what gets written, so researchers want a filter system where someone else throws out at least some of the crap (or forces the crap to be re-written to be better) so that there's a better signal-to-noise ratio. In the current system where there's motivation to publish in "better places", if something is published in a "worse place" that's some evidence that the paper is weak (because if the authors could have published it in a better place, why didn't they?) and thus perhaps can be discarded without reading, or deprioritized to read only after you've read all of the better-ranked stuff.

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#53
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "value" here is a racket though, right? The publishing companies do not create anything of value, they hold a resource (prestige) that they do nothing to improve, transform or grow. Academies do all that labour for free, and the publishers rent-seek on that free labour and run a racket ("publish here or else"). It's a feudal setup: a king controls the land but does nothing with it. The serfs do all the labour and…

> It's a feudal setup: Yes it is, but why hasnt it changed in the past 30 years? Because the serfs (academics) cannot agree on a replacement ruler. It's not like there arent many good open access publishers. But there aren't many open 'prestige givers'

> why it changed in the past 30 years?

In my former university, the people in power hasn't changed in the past 30 years. So worshiping the big publishers is still the norm and it takes a while for new students to detach themselves from their supervisors' delusions and realize the whole scam.

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#54
Half of the article is about the disparity between pricing of print and e-books. Universities have been moving to ebooks for ease of access, and also to avoid building structurally expensive libraries that cope with the weight of the books. Looks like the publishers are raising the prices of e-books to match the value to institutions. Another case of excessive profits for little effort on the part of publishers.

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also manage the review process (screen papers, find reviewers, communicate with authors and reviewers), make sure that papers are accessible long-term (decades to centuries), typeset manuscripts, print paper issues, and several other tasks. But yes, reviewers are not paid. A half-decent review can easily take 3-4 hours, and a typical paper gets 2-3 reviews, so something like 8-12 hours of PhD-level labor which a…

> They also manage the review process (screen papers, find reviewers, communicate with authors and reviewers), They do not. That's the editor's job, and Elsevier journal editors are unpaid volunteers -- as the Guardian article correctly pointed out. > A half-decent review can easily take 3-4 hours, and a typical paper gets 2-3 reviews, so something like 8-12 hours of PhD-level labor which are not currently compensate…

Who pays for those hours?

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#56
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your point but let's dive another layer down the rabbithole. Why do researchers need to buy prestige in the first place? Academic research should be done for the sake of advancement of knowledge and of course the people doing it should make a good living out of it. How does buying prestige come into play here? (just asking)

You need some kind of ranking. Anyone who have tried to write a scientific paper know how much junk there is being published through the "pay to publish" channels and it will just get worse with the technical development of chatGPT. Journals with high prestige tend to work as a barrier for junk.

More generally, curation has value (see web search or even hardware like an iPhone). And to your point, curation value is increasing because the volume of stuff needing to be curated is growing at what feels like an exponential rate.

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#57
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also manage the review process (screen papers, find reviewers, communicate with authors and reviewers), They do not. That's the editor's job, and Elsevier journal editors are unpaid volunteers -- as the Guardian article correctly pointed out. > A half-decent review can easily take 3-4 hours, and a typical paper gets 2-3 reviews, so something like 8-12 hours of PhD-level labor which are not currently compensate…

Who pays for those hours?

Technically, no one; in practice, it gets done by both faculty and grad students/postdocs paid by universities as something that's expected of them to keep getting their wages for their primary work.

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#58
post #43
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your point but let's dive another layer down the rabbithole. Why do researchers need to buy prestige in the first place? Academic research should be done for the sake of advancement of knowledge and of course the people doing it should make a good living out of it. How does buying prestige come into play here? (just asking)

Consider you are another researcher (not the one who has just published). You may want to keep up to date with your field. This is good to do and it helps foster new ideas for now and for future proposals. There will be a selection of journals that are relevant to you and they will publish work that, generally, will be tiered by either the scope or impact of the journal. Journal A publishes a lot of papers you find v…

Maybe I am wrong here, but shouldn't the quality metric be whether it acts as a basis for practical applications? As far as I understand, research is supposed to give theoretical answers and frameworks. X works like this. Y doesn't work like that. This knowledge should then be applied to the real world and will be prooved wrong or right. Maybe a silly thought, but I suppose pre 1800 science didn't have to pay such fees to proove the quality of their work, they just applied it.

(I understand not all papers can be immediatelly applied, but is that the majotity of the work? And if so, is that a good thing?)

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#59

Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…

You're saying academic prestige is a Veblen good, like a handbag?

Are you sure?

Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees

#60

You cannot really blame Elsevier here. They are just taking advantage of a dysfunctional academic system. The cost of reviewing a paper properly is high, but academia is not paying that cost by simply not doing a proper review. If the money saved by cutting Elsevier out (in this case £2700 per accepted paper) would actually be added to a pool out of which reviews are financed, I would see the point. But as it is, the…

The article states that peer review is done on a volunteer basis, right? All Elsevier does, at best, is put PDFs of the papers on their servers.

Reviewers don't get paid indeed. It used to be that in exchange for getting published, you'd join a pool of reviewers that got to review new submissions. I reviewed plenty of papers like this. Many of them pretty bad too. It's not a fun job and it's important to do it well because some other sorry person is going to be reviewing your paper at some point. The price of publishing is having to read a lot of poorly written papers.

Editors don't actually get involved with the review process unless there is some conflict. Editors are of course paid positions. Their job is to keep supply and quality up. Generally, they get more hands on later in the process.

The only cost beyond that is indeed some simple, mostly automated, layout work and file hosting. Some of the more prestigious publications have actual professional editors on staff that work with authors to improve style and quality. But most scientific journals don't do any of that. Actually printing the papers is rare these days. It's mostly online at this point.

I've been out of academia for twenty years now, so things have changed a bit probably. But even back then, it was all pdfs and I rarely used printed media (other than laser printed copies of pdfs). Visiting a library or handling actual printed journals or a photocopier just wasn't a thing. Most of that went away in the nineties.

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