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When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

blog.zulip.com

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Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#241

Post by ohgodplsno »

ghaff wrote: post #215
ohgodplsno wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when the product dies, you know what you still have? Your fully up to date product with the latest updates, until the very last day. My wallet isn't here to pay for your company's inability to find a market.

You have a "fully up to date" product until an operating system upgrade breaks it or there's a security vulnerability that really does need to be patched. Although I sold a small-time file manager shareware product for a number of years, I tend to agree that forever upgrades isn't a great model in general. Especially if sales are trailing off over time, I have zero incentive to provide updates/patches especially if s…

>You have a "fully up to date" product until an operating system upgrade breaks it

The amount of Windows executables that cannot work after upgrades is absurdly low, and is often obscure software that either relies on internal behavior or simply hasn't been tested and approved on newer versions by The Powers That Be. MacOS tends to be dreadful on backwards compatibility, but that's more due to Apple's clown-ish behavior when it comes to backwards compat. As for linux, well, welcome to LTS life.

> there's a security vulnerability that really does need to be patched.

So, for an extremely small minority of programs, it's a problem. Unless there's an RCE in FL Studio, you won't ever need to upgrade it. And unless FL Studio takes in unsanitized output from the outside... yeah, no, not a problem.

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#242

Post by dmn322 »

eduction wrote: post #217
dmn322 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) it's not people, it's a company. They're 2 different things. People have consciences and families. Companies are beholden to shareholders. People can find a different job if their company fails. I don't think we need to be forgiving to companies. They're not forgiving to people. They act on policy. 2) While I admit that I'm guilty of it too, overpromising is pretty destructive. It causes you to have to work harder…

That’s fine, you don’t have to love a corp like they’re a human, or empathize, but they’re definitely going to screw up in a human way because they’re made of humans, so customers are going to be disappointed if they expect too much. The earlier comment called ending free lifetime updates/service “incredibly scummy behavior.” That seems way off to me. In the pantheon of bad corporate behavior that’s not even a 1 out…

I don't think they screw up in human ways though. That's not a human way. A human freelancer or friend wouldn't get away with just ghosting like that after promising something. They would have to own up and face the music. They screwed up in an institutional way: by changing policy when it suited them, and trying to cover their tracks.

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#243

Post by dmn322 »

duckmysick wrote: post #227
dmn322 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) it's not people, it's a company. They're 2 different things. People have consciences and families. Companies are beholden to shareholders. People can find a different job if their company fails. I don't think we need to be forgiving to companies. They're not forgiving to people. They act on policy. 2) While I admit that I'm guilty of it too, overpromising is pretty destructive. It causes you to have to work harder…

Regarding the first point: you're right in the context of large corporations (such as Mattermost). We also have sole proprietorships, which are strongly tied to the owner.

True, and even in the case of larger corporations, they can act with a little humanity when they have a strong leader with lots of leeway.. but then they don't get the scaling benefits of relying on systematic policy and can make more errors.

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#244

Post by Jill_the_Pill »

alsobrsp wrote: post #61
newscracker wrote: post #59

This is well written, but it doesn’t really explain how or why Zulip will maintain its free plan forever. However, the existence of this post also makes Zulip committed deeper to not pull the rug on the free plan. Whenever that happens, I’d like to believe that there would be grandfathering for existing users on the free plan (unlike the rug pull that Google attempted with its free GSuite/Workplace offering and decid…

I have been using a free plan for over two years. Zulip is awesome and, in my opinion, way better that slack. I use both on a daily basis.

Fully agree -- professor hosting college classes on Zulip after leaving Slack

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#245

Post by onion2k »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #176
onion2k wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company states something is 'forever' or 'unlimited' they should be held to exactly that offer. Companies should not be able to use very appealing language and then just say "but obviously we didn't really mean forever !". Using language with a specific meaning with no intention to actually honor what you're offering is fraud.

if you had read some of the previous thread you might have picked up on the subtle distinction that some of the people being dinged for saying Forever probably meant forever when they said it but then ran up against reality. True if you say forever you should be held to it, on the other hand if someone says forever to you you should hopefully be clever enough to realize they can't do it because forever is unknowable.…

Again though, you're arguing that the company offering 'forever' and not delivering it should become the customer's problem.

If the company doesn't want to 'come up against reality' they shouldn't make offers they can't deliver.

All I'm saying here is that the customer should come first, even if the company finds it hard or costly to do what they said they will. That isn't controversial.

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#246

Post by charrondev »

bitL wrote: post #237
berniedurfee wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Therein lies the problem. Growth is always the goal until everything blows up. It’d be great sometimes to switch from grow to sustain. Instead of going after the next 1000000 customers with new features, just stop and focus on making existing features amazing for existing customers. No new markets. No doubling ARR. Just chill, make stability the goal.

Won't work for any externally-capitalized company.

It doesn’t even work for internally-capitalized companies. For one thing even companies focusing exclusively on serving existing customers will have some churn and that will necessitate new sales to offset the losses.

Sales teams generally work on commission so to keep good sales people you have to develop new features to compete

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#247

Post by Osiris »

dmn322 wrote: post #242
eduction wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s fine, you don’t have to love a corp like they’re a human, or empathize, but they’re definitely going to screw up in a human way because they’re made of humans, so customers are going to be disappointed if they expect too much. The earlier comment called ending free lifetime updates/service “incredibly scummy behavior.” That seems way off to me. In the pantheon of bad corporate behavior that’s not even a 1 out…

I don't think they screw up in human ways though. That's not a human way. A human freelancer or friend wouldn't get away with just ghosting like that after promising something. They would have to own up and face the music. They screwed up in an institutional way: by changing policy when it suited them, and trying to cover their tracks.

What? Humans get away with crap like this all the time. You’ve never had a friend promise to show up to something and then not show up? Or promise to return a tool after borrowing it and not do it?

Or a freelance contractor/handyman only do half a job?

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#248

Post by berniedurfee »

dontknowmuch wrote: post #235
berniedurfee wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reaper does the same thing: ridiculously inexpensive and insanely well built, one edition, updates every couple weeks, supports an SDK, I could go on. I think it’s also freemium with a nag screen. How this is sustainable is beyond me, but I’m thankful every day there are still some SW companies who do amazing things without sucking the life out of their customers at every turn. https://www.reaper.fm/

FYI, Reaper's license is for life, but the updates aren't. "A new license includes free upgrades through REAPER version 7.99." from https://www.reaper.fm/purchase.php

Given the cost and length of time between needing to buy a new license, it’s effectively lifetime upgrades.

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#249

Post by miragecraft »

I’ve always viewed “free forever” as “we will not sneakily start charging you for it”, not that the price tier itself will be available forever.

Because nobody can guarantee the later even if it’s a paid tier, much less a no-cost loss leader.

Re: When “free forever” means “free for the next 4 months”

#250

Post by [deleted] »

lolinder wrote: post #224
kragen wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i would rather say it's from the 'never let a competitor's dishonesty go unnoticed' that you call it a 'mistake' speaks very poorly of you

> that you call it a 'mistake' speaks very poorly of you There is zero need to launch personal attacks in this context.

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