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Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

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Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#101

Post by ekianjo »

tpm wrote: post #60
01100011 wrote: post #33

Does Finland have a problem with Mexican cartel meth and fentanyl being dumped by the truckloads into its communities? To be clear, there are many types of homeless in the US. But the ones that get the most attention and seem to cause the most problems are those pushed into mental illness by drug use. And, yes, drug use does not always cause mental illness and many mentally ill are not on drugs, but as those of us wi…

This is also very much a problem which the US engages in its own way. Would the meth and opiods be sold under a state monopoly to addicts for the manufacturing price, the cartels wouldn't have a market. Why do I mention that? Well... https://www.concealedwines.com/business-opportunities-scandi...

ever heard of oxycontin? It was a FDA approved drug (and still is), a powerful opoid that probably killed hundreds of thousands of people in the US, because it was used to train any kind of chronic pain and turned normal folks into drug addicts. It was all legal, until the people realized what was happening and the FDA acted 10 years late.

Legal opoids just lead to more dead bodies piling up, which is why many countries put heavy restrictions on legal opoids.

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#102

Post by ajuc »

deanc wrote: post #99
jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

I lived in Finland for a while. Being homeless in that country is pretty hard core in the winter. Which is a reason that sheltering people there is not a nice to have; you either shelter them or you collect their dead bodies in the morning. It's that simple. Places like Helsinki never had a large community of homeless people to begin with (natural selection). But it has plenty of social issues of course. Alcoholism i…

This is a nuanced issue and I agree with what you wrote. I live in Finland. Some additional thoughts: - The scale of social problems in the US is on a whole other level. More people requires bigger solutions. - The state vs government system in the US means it's every state for themselves when solving social issues. This is seen in states actively shipping homeless people to warmer climate states in order to make the…

> The scale of social problems in the US is on a whole other level. More people requires bigger solutions

Problems get big if they are ignored for long enough. Fix the root causes first: https://www.retireguide.com/retirement-planning/risks/medica...

Whatever remains can be solved with social housing.

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#103

Post by anonzzzies »

It looks like Finland is similar to my country in this respect; homeless people don’t need to be homeless in the first place as, even if everything falls down (financially or (whatever)abuse wise), they still are entitled to state support. They get state housing, but here, at least in the summer, I know quite a few who choose to sleep on the streets anyway. They have mental illnesses (they get help for) and they like begging (wearing clean clothes mostly) as a means of socialising (that’s how I got to know them; they come over when you sit at bars and when you don’t give money right away they start talking).

The problem is generally not comparable to some other countries; if you do see horrible scenes like in some US neighbourhoods (drug zombies, crack prostitutes, drug dealers, violence), they are extremely rare here and almost exclusively involve a tiny group of illegal immigrants. They are usually removed pretty quickly and, presumably, taken to an immigrant center (where they get beds and food) to be processed for either legal immigration or redirected to their home country.

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#104

Post by midoridensha »

dazc wrote: post #69
emodendroket wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I lived in Finland for a while. Being homeless in that country is pretty hard core in the winter. Which is a reason that sheltering people there is not a nice to have; you either shelter them or you collect their dead bodies in the morning. It's that simple. Unfortunately there are any number of people who would be happy with option B in this scenario.

'Unfortunately there are any number of people who would be happy with option B in this scenario.' Since we are going on personal beliefs rather than hard facts, I suspect is number is very low.

In western Europe, yes. In America, no.

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#105

Post by misja111 »

exDM69 wrote: post #80
misja111 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The houses which are given to homeless are mostly concentrated in certain area's. So if they cause problems, which of course they do, they don't bother 'normal' families. Those area's are pretty bad, but they're not as dangerous as e.g. in the US. I guess it's because the addicts are mostly alcoholics and they get just enough government money to buy their daily booze.

This is incorrect. There are only a few houses for this purpose in the Helsinki Area, and they are actually in quite nice locations and far from each other. No-one in their right mind would live in these houses if they have an alternative, but the problems don't affect the wider area. Some restlessness in the immediate vicinity, but not that bad.

According to https://world-habitat.org/news/our-blog/helsinki-is-still-le..., there were 3000 houses in 2022 for this purpose in the Helsinki Area.

> and they are actually in quite nice locations and far from each other.

The area's near Helsinki were I've been and where I was told by Finnish people were a lot of state houses, were certainly not nice locations. There were alcoholics everywhere and the area was visibly poor. But it's true, they were not as bad as in many other countries.

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#106

Post by misja111 »

exDM69 wrote: post #97
misja111 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I'm not Finnish but have stayed in the Helsinki area a lot. There were certain area's in e.g. Tikkurila and Jakomaeki which were pretty bad, and Finnish people told me it was because many alcoholics lived there in state housing. So I supposed that state housing was concentrated in certain area's.

That is a different matter. Municipalities own a significant amount of housing available for rent. These are available for anyone but there are societal reasons why someone might be preferred (e.g. single mother), while others are in the queue. These are not the housing units given to the homeless. They are run by organizations and charities together in collaboration with municipal social workers. There are two or th…

> There are two or three houses like this in Helsinki.

So are you saying that two or three houses were enough to solve homelessness in Helsinki?

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#107

Post by reitanqild »

01100011 wrote: post #33

Does Finland have a problem with Mexican cartel meth and fentanyl being dumped by the truckloads into its communities? To be clear, there are many types of homeless in the US. But the ones that get the most attention and seem to cause the most problems are those pushed into mental illness by drug use. And, yes, drug use does not always cause mental illness and many mentally ill are not on drugs, but as those of us wi…

Finland has a really long, shared border with Russia, a country that is much worse than Mexico in about every aspect I am aware of.

That said, I think most drugs that comes into Scandinavia comes in freights from European ports or by couriers, at least that is how I understand it from the news.

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#108

Post by helsinkiandrew »

usernew wrote: post #94
pavlov wrote: post #8

This Guardian story gives more detail on how the program works: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/03/its-a-miracle... Common objections to applying this policy elsewhere seem to be “We’re bigger than Finland” and “We’re not ethnically homogenous like Finland.” On the first point, 5M people isn’t really that small. It’s roughly the median population of an American state. On the second point, well… It does so…

[flagged]

> Here, have a fun read. This is what happens literally every time it's tried. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/homeless-hotels-...

The difference is the Finnish scheme is getting people into their own homes, fairly well distributed across society - not beds in hostels/shelters or low quality apartments in sink estates.

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#109

Post by draugadrotten »

bjarneh wrote: post #57

> And that led to an insight: people tend to function better when they’re not living on the street or under a bridge. Who would have guessed? Reminds me of the old Fran Lebowitz bit about homelessness, where she says they insist on calling it homelessness, since that makes it sound unsolvable. You really can't buy people a home . If they called it houselessness it would be too easily solvable.

> If they called it houselessness it would be too easily solvable.

Only if one believes that the lack of a home or a house is the root cause of the individuals problem.

A drug addict provided with a house as a home will turn that house into a cesspit in very short time. The drug addict does not clean, does not take out the trash, does not repair. The drug addict will invite other drug addicts to the house, essentially turning it into what is called a drug house. The house can no longer be lived in, and it stops being a home.

Now, is that really helping anyone? No, it is not.

Helping homeless people is a noble cause and should be done - Finland is doing good there. Helping SF drug addicts is a noble cause and should be done - but not by giving them a free house. They need help with their drug addiction first and foremost. Having somewhere to shelter while they get that help is a necessary part of the solution but it is the solution.

Mental issues and drug addiction frequently overlaps but otherwise the same argument applies. Help needs to be directed on the root cause and issues and homelessness is a symptom, not a cause.

You disruptors out there, get going. Where is the unicorn hidden here?

Re: Given a place to live, Finland’s homeless were better able to deal with problems

#110

Post by tpm »

ekianjo wrote: post #101
tpm wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also very much a problem which the US engages in its own way. Would the meth and opiods be sold under a state monopoly to addicts for the manufacturing price, the cartels wouldn't have a market. Why do I mention that? Well... https://www.concealedwines.com/business-opportunities-scandi...

ever heard of oxycontin? It was a FDA approved drug (and still is), a powerful opoid that probably killed hundreds of thousands of people in the US, because it was used to train any kind of chronic pain and turned normal folks into drug addicts. It was all legal, until the people realized what was happening and the FDA acted 10 years late. Legal opoids just lead to more dead bodies piling up, which is why many countr…

It was legal, but sold for profit. And the problem ballooned because the state and society did not care. It was legal, lots of people made lots of money, everything was great apart from the fact many people died.

What I am arguing for is the exact opposite. The drugs should be sold with no profit and only to addicts, thus eliminating the motivation to sell more and enlarge the market.

Something similar is done in Switzerland, with state provided safe injection rooms, or in Portugal. But for that the mindset would have to change and I am not sure whether this is possible.

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