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How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

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Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#101

Post by alistairSH »

mthoms wrote: post #70
garbagecoder wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was stuck in a loop where my son's iCloud account had a subscription to Parallels, but it was on my credit card. He lost his password because he's 12. Even though I'm the parent on the account, it wouldn't let me cancel his purchase. But it also wouldn't let me reset his password for 6 weeks, and only a week into that period a $100 parallels subscription was going to go through. Fortunately, American Express revers…

Yep. It's a blatantly obvious dark pattern. It's your credit card. Your money. Yet Apple gives you no way to cancel (or even view!) a child's subscription online. Heck, they won't even tell you which child made the subscription.

Why do you allow your child to buy subscriptions without approval?

Does "Family Sharing" with "Require Purchase Approval" not work as described?

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#102

Post by eli »

Damogran6 wrote: post #23
eli wrote: post #13

"Deceptive patterns" is now the preferred term for what used to be called "dark patterns" It's both more descriptive and avoids equating "dark" to "bad". I've also heard "hostile patterns" as an umbrella term that covers deceptive patterns as well as careless UX problems like a design that isn't accessible.

So...I get the reasoning, but yet another in a large string of things where I wouldn't have conflated something with race....until you brought it up, and now I do...I don't know if I should feel guilty at the inherent privilege or if people are just taking it to an extreme, or if it's just language being language.

I don't think you or OP or anyone else here is trying to offend. Nor do I think most people hearing the term would find it offensive.

But like I said: the alternative is both more descriptive and avoids the issue. This feels like an easy one.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#103

Post by burnished »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #36
graypegg wrote: post #3

I heard someone say a while back that “cancelled customers are just potential future customers”. Anyone that’s had an easy cancellation process will remember that flexibility if they ever need that service again. No idea why no large subscription service seems to understand that. Make me go thru annoying hoops and you’ve lost me for good!

I mean, just thinking through it logically, it _must_ be harder getting someone to sign back up for a service they quit right? I mean, they tried it and then they left it because ostensibly they didn’t think it provided value. How does that equation change?

Or they left because it was no longer providing them value - but that is a consequence of circumstances which are always changing.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#105

Post by eli »

azangru wrote: post #31
eli wrote: post #13

"Deceptive patterns" is now the preferred term for what used to be called "dark patterns" It's both more descriptive and avoids equating "dark" to "bad". I've also heard "hostile patterns" as an umbrella term that covers deceptive patterns as well as careless UX problems like a design that isn't accessible.

> "Deceptive patterns" is now the preferred term Preferred by whom though? The authors of the article preferred "dark patterns" — probably as something more commonly used in their circles.

The IETF for one https://github.com/ietf/terminology/pull/9

My intent wasn't to appeal to authority though. I think Deceptive Patterns is just plain better. A term being popular doesn't prove it is precise or inoffensive.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#106

Post by goosedragons »

taude wrote: post #79
Damogran6 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear Lord, Youtube. Annoying Ad plays Saaay, we can make those ads go away, for just a little money. It's like paying the mob to make sure nothing happens to your store (by the mob)

I've used uBlockOrigin in the past for YouTube ads, and it works well on a laptop. What's nice about Premium, if you use it on an iPad, is it lets you download videos, and let's you also play them in the background, etc. I did this a lot for listening to Sleep casts and such.... I'm at a point, though, where I only want to consume YouTube content from a computer, when I'm trying to solve a problem, and not passively…

What's annoying about premium is a lot of the features are things that were free that they made not be. You USED to be able to play videos in the background on an iPad no problem then they decided that was a paid feature for some reason. Fortunately on Android you can easily do it with Firefox and an extension.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#107

Post by burnished »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #8
pelagicAustral wrote: post #2

No shit! As an anecdote just yesterday I fell for the premium meme on LinkedIn... I could just not stand the idea of not knowing who visited my profile! (how weak of me), they literally charged me 20 bucks (half price) for a month of premium, I bet I will completely forget to cancel the sub next month and I will end up paying 40 dollars for a few more months until I finally decide its been enough... Also, fell for Sp…

Are any of those dark patterns? They all seem very transparent. Set a reminder to cancel the subscription.

Ease of entry and exit should be roughly equivalent. Another perspective that makes it clearer; any attempt to trick or subvert the will of another is a dark pattern.

Transparency here is a distraction, plenty of tricks still work great even when people can see them coming. Focus on the intent and the result however and it becomes clear.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#108

Post by mthoms »

alistairSH wrote: post #101
mthoms wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. It's a blatantly obvious dark pattern. It's your credit card. Your money. Yet Apple gives you no way to cancel (or even view!) a child's subscription online. Heck, they won't even tell you which child made the subscription.

Why do you allow your child to buy subscriptions without approval? Does "Family Sharing" with "Require Purchase Approval" not work as described?

It's (IMO) intentionally crippled because it asks for every app install. Including free ones. Which is not only annoying, since kids play a lot of games, but also creates a time delay. For example, the child is in a special education program that requires certain apps. If he tries to install one at school and I don't approve it immediately then that's a problem.

There is no option to "ask for permission if it costs money" option. Which, let's be honest - is probably what most parents are looking for (and would be dead simple to implement).

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#109

Post by [deleted] »

garbagecoder wrote: post #97
willcipriano wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US based? Next time tell them he's 12 and made the account himself without your permission. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Online_Privacy_...

I could have, but I don't think I should have to massage the facts to get this fixed. I made the account. He just lost his password.

[deleted]

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#110

Post by mthoms »

lencastre wrote: post #89
mthoms wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple does this because the alternative would be devastatingly bad press. I mean, why do they permit 3 day trials that start billing at $9.99/week after that? For an app that creates ringtones? How many phone apps in the world are worth $520 per year? And BTW, that "3 day trial"? It's actually 2 days since you have to cancel at least 24 hours before the subscription renews. So it's really 33% less than they claim. If…

Trials absolutely need to be super clear about the exact date of start of billing. I think iOS has gotten much better and you have even a dedicated subscriptions tab in your iOS profile in settings.

True, but you have no insight into subscriptions that a minor has made on your credit card as part of family sharing. One might expect them to appear there but they don't.
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