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White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

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Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#91

Post by shadowgovt »

ETH_start wrote: post #90
shadowgovt wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what principle is the government constrained from discriminating against some uses of electricity?

By the principle that people should be free to expend their resources on whatever they want, whether it's generating crypto, running high-powered gaming computers, or displaying abstract art. When someone buys electricity, does it belong to them, or some totalitarian government that micromanages its private citizens actions? If the former, then what peaceful behavior one uses their electricity for should be of no con…

That's not really how taxes work. Over the course of the day, I'll buy gas for a car, some art supplies, a few groceries, a pack of cigarettes, and dinner and a beer at a restaurant. The taxes paid on those differ wildly (with the cigarettes and beer definitely taxed with an eye on minimizing consuming of them). Tax is a tool for both revenue generation and behavior shaping; has been for centuries. Nothing totalitarian about it.

In this case, the creation of crypto bits is, ostensibly, wealth creation. Of course the government can tax the materials that go into that asymmetrically, much as many states exempt residential natural gas from tax but not commercial.

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#92

Post by ETH_start »

shadowgovt wrote: post #91
ETH_start wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the principle that people should be free to expend their resources on whatever they want, whether it's generating crypto, running high-powered gaming computers, or displaying abstract art. When someone buys electricity, does it belong to them, or some totalitarian government that micromanages its private citizens actions? If the former, then what peaceful behavior one uses their electricity for should be of no con…

That's not really how taxes work. Over the course of the day, I'll buy gas for a car, some art supplies, a few groceries, a pack of cigarettes, and dinner and a beer at a restaurant. The taxes paid on those differ wildly (with the cigarettes and beer definitely taxed with an eye on minimizing consuming of them). Tax is a tool for both revenue generation and behavior shaping; has been for centuries. Nothing totalitari…

If taxes work in a way where it's singling out a behavior that doesn't generate negative externalities, and punishing it to discourage that behavior, then I suggest we change how they work so they no longer do that.

But in fact, they don't work that way. Smoking and alcohol consumption is qualitatively different than mining crypto. Due to how much medical expenses are socialized, they generate negative externalities due to the damage they do to health. So-called sin taxes are also discouraging a behavior that we can objectively state is harmful to the person who engages in it.

There is no objective basis on which to claim crypto mining is more harmful than any other non-essential behavior. Using taxes to punish it is an inappropriate use of government power based on the prevailing standards in the Free World.

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#93

Post by golergka »

dsr_ wrote: post #51
golergka wrote: post #41

So weird seeing such a positive feedback here as opposed to ISPs attempts to break net neutrality when it's exactly the same thing. When you purchase services or commodities, price either should depend on what you're using them for, or it shouldn't.

All societies are engaged in encouraging some behaviors, being neutral about some, and discouraging others. The tools for encouragement and discouragement are almost always, and always should, lie on a continuum from "subtle" to "draconian". Your proposal amounts to banning the intermediate grades. I suspect this is not what you actually want. It is certainly not what I want.

I don't have any proposal here, just an observation about self inconsistency

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#94

Post by shadowgovt »

ETH_start wrote: post #92
shadowgovt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really how taxes work. Over the course of the day, I'll buy gas for a car, some art supplies, a few groceries, a pack of cigarettes, and dinner and a beer at a restaurant. The taxes paid on those differ wildly (with the cigarettes and beer definitely taxed with an eye on minimizing consuming of them). Tax is a tool for both revenue generation and behavior shaping; has been for centuries. Nothing totalitari…

If taxes work in a way where it's singling out a behavior that doesn't generate negative externalities, and punishing it to discourage that behavior, then I suggest we change how they work so they no longer do that. But in fact, they don't work that way. Smoking and alcohol consumption is qualitatively different than mining crypto. Due to how much medical expenses are socialized, they generate negative externalities…

> There is no objective basis on which to claim crypto mining is more harmful than any other non-essential behavior.

It generates demand for finite electrical resources that have a net negative externality on the climate. https://www.whitehouse.gov/ostp/news-updates/2022/09/08/fact.... The argument "But people would be using the electricity for something else if not for crypto" is unsupported; given the uniquely mobile and speculative nature of proof-of-work crypto, it is creating an environment to tap gas wells that would otherwise stay shuttered and increase the rate of the climate slide.

While it is perhaps no more harmful than any other non-essential behavior, it's the non-essential behavior that's driving demand to burn fossil fuels. You put taxes where human behavior is, not where it isn't.

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#95

Post by mattgreenrocks »

bradjohnson wrote: post #26
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really tempted to buy some ETH at this point, and I'm a crypto skeptic who owns nothing. Smart move?

If red hasn't come up in a while on a roulette table, is it a smart move to bet on red?

Fair enough. Thanks!

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#96

Post by ipaddr »

bradjohnson wrote: post #86
Mistletoe wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never a smart move? It's been the best performing asset like clockwork 3 out of every 4 years since inception, in time with the Bitcoin halving cycles. https://twitter.com/TimmerFidelity/status/165311478425704038...

There is no basis for the increase in value. Crypto at large is a Ponzi scheme where the increase in amount of suckers buying into it is the sole evidence given for its usefulness. Every stalwart crypto supporter talks out of both sides of their mouth every time they are questioned about the actual utility of crypto. Is it the future of money (AKA useful liquidity) or is it a great investment that can only increase i…

In fairness share prices have no basis aside from supply and demand.

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#97

Post by ETH_start »

shadowgovt wrote: post #94
ETH_start wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If taxes work in a way where it's singling out a behavior that doesn't generate negative externalities, and punishing it to discourage that behavior, then I suggest we change how they work so they no longer do that. But in fact, they don't work that way. Smoking and alcohol consumption is qualitatively different than mining crypto. Due to how much medical expenses are socialized, they generate negative externalities…

> There is no objective basis on which to claim crypto mining is more harmful than any other non-essential behavior. It generates demand for finite electrical resources that have a net negative externality on the climate. https://www.whitehouse.gov/ostp/news-updates/2022/09/08/fact... . The argument "But people would be using the electricity for something else if not for crypto" is unsupported; given the uniquely mob…

>>It generates demand for finite electrical resources that have a net negative externality on the climate.

The expansion of any industry does that. Singling out crypto suggests something else motivating the measure.

>>The argument "But people would be using the electricity for something else if not for crypto" is unsupported; given the uniquely mobile and speculative nature of proof-of-work crypto,

That argument is not necessary. The point is any non-essential activity that uses electricity has this environmental impact, and said impact could be reduced by taxing CO2 emissions from non-essential activity.

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