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White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

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Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#81

Post by izzydata »

ulrashida wrote: post #80
izzydata wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there isn't enough electricity to go around it makes sense to do something about it. It seems like the issue is about electricity distribution rather than the use of the electricity. If it is the scale that is the problem then other seemingly unimportant industries using a ton of electricity in a time of crises should maybe also be limited.

Could you suggest a few unimportant, high energy consumption industries you had in mind? The IEA suggests the following: * Chemical manufacturers * Steelmaking * Paper mills * Refineries Industrial crypto mining is not in good company here.

Maybe so, but I'm mainly suggesting that such a law be written a way that targets any large scale and wasteful use of electricity rather than being so specific to crypto. Even if that means crypto is the only thing currently affected.

I don't like the idea of a law deciding what you can and can't compute or that some other wasteful industries get a free pass.

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#82

Post by dragontamer »

izzydata wrote: post #81
ulrashida wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you suggest a few unimportant, high energy consumption industries you had in mind? The IEA suggests the following: * Chemical manufacturers * Steelmaking * Paper mills * Refineries Industrial crypto mining is not in good company here.

Maybe so, but I'm mainly suggesting that such a law be written a way that targets any large scale and wasteful use of electricity rather than being so specific to crypto. Even if that means crypto is the only thing currently affected. I don't like the idea of a law deciding what you can and can't compute or that some other wasteful industries get a free pass.

> Maybe so, but I'm mainly suggesting that such a law be written a way that targets any large scale and wasteful use of electricity rather than being so specific to crypto

Cryptocoin mining is the easiest thing to get rid of that's both large scale and wasteful.

If you got any other large scale wasteful uses of electricity, please let me know and we can work on getting rid of it too.

> that some other wasteful industries

Please start listing those "other wasteful industries".

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#83

Post by Mistletoe »

bradjohnson wrote: post #63
Mistletoe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a good person to ask since I've been drinking the crypto kool-aid since I was an Ethereum miner long ago and now staker. In a world of rampant money printing and inflation and artificial everything, yes I think Ethereum will be useful for a very long time. https://ultrasound.money/

Useful how? Linking a real-time deflation chart doesn't exactly scream "useful".

Freedom from monetary debasement. An attempt for the first time in human history to have a global currency not follow the "money printing, debasement, start a war to try and fix it/civilization collapse" cycle.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOGMBASE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debasement

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#84

Post by Mistletoe »

bradjohnson wrote: post #50
ipaddr wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about 50-50 (minus 0 and double 00) regardless

I'm saying that any knowledge you think might tip the scales in one direction is inconsequential. You will lose money or gain money depending on the will of those with the most stake. It is never a "smart move" to invest in crypto. It is gambling. Maybe get a lady friend to blow on your mouse before you click buy.

Never a smart move? It's been the best performing asset like clockwork 3 out of every 4 years since inception, in time with the Bitcoin halving cycles.

https://twitter.com/TimmerFidelity/status/165311478425704038...

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#85

Post by bradjohnson »

Mistletoe wrote: post #83
bradjohnson wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful how? Linking a real-time deflation chart doesn't exactly scream "useful".

Freedom from monetary debasement. An attempt for the first time in human history to have a global currency not follow the "money printing, debasement, start a war to try and fix it/civilization collapse" cycle. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOGMBASE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debasement

There's no such thing as monetary debasement for bank notes as there is no intrinsic value for the physical dollar.

If you're saying that inflation in general is bad for the economy, I would encourage you to read this: https://www.britannica.com/money/inflation-vs-deflation

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#86

Post by bradjohnson »

Mistletoe wrote: post #84
bradjohnson wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that any knowledge you think might tip the scales in one direction is inconsequential. You will lose money or gain money depending on the will of those with the most stake. It is never a "smart move" to invest in crypto. It is gambling. Maybe get a lady friend to blow on your mouse before you click buy.

Never a smart move? It's been the best performing asset like clockwork 3 out of every 4 years since inception, in time with the Bitcoin halving cycles. https://twitter.com/TimmerFidelity/status/165311478425704038...

There is no basis for the increase in value. Crypto at large is a Ponzi scheme where the increase in amount of suckers buying into it is the sole evidence given for its usefulness.

Every stalwart crypto supporter talks out of both sides of their mouth every time they are questioned about the actual utility of crypto. Is it the future of money (AKA useful liquidity) or is it a great investment that can only increase in value (AKA speculative deflationary asset)?

It cannot be both and it is certainly not useful as money. Makes you wonder why DOES the line go up?

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#87

Post by jrm4 »

leetcrew wrote: post #77
jrm4 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I think that "generally, the government we have now" does as good or a better job of "what the community wants" than whatever it is you're proposing? Especially here? It's absolutely reasonable -- if not likely -- to think that "the community" thinks of bitcoin mining as a wasteful and stupid idea and is expressing that preference through its politicians. I don't think you're going to see a lot of arguments in…

I honestly could not care less whether crypto mining is or is not a viable business. I don't do it myself, and I don't hold any crypto. I just hate to see yet random tax meant to appease people who are upset over this week's headline and will move on to being upset about something else next week. it's not an effective recipe for addressing actual root causes of problems. but yeah, I don't really expect anyone to care…

Yeah, I mean I think "proof of work" crypto is an easy target for an entirely appropriate reason; it's perfectly wasteful, even beyond eg ridiculous Christmas lights.

And now that crypto has better "work functions" e.g. "proof-of-stake," there's just no reason to not tax this.

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#88

Post by dragontamer »

xk_id wrote: post #68

I think it’s short sighted to celebrate this. In reality it won’t reduce the demand for bitcoin hashpower. Instead it will force miners to flee to foreign jurisdictions (like Kazakhstan, china, russia, iran, venezuela), who are the least producers of clean energy. The result becomes higher climate impact, loss of domestic taxable income and slower growth of renewable energy due to lowered demand. Not to mention the m…

Who ever said this was about clean energy or carbon whatevers?

This to me, is about not wasting US resources on this. Let other countries waste their electricity on cryptocoin mining if they want to. There's only so much electricity in this country, and there's already plenty of regulations on waste (or attempts to mitigate waste).

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#89

Post by dragontamer »

lockhouse wrote: post #8

How would you even enforce this? I think crypto is a huge waste of electricity but this is not the answer.

Well, when someone opens up a Data-center in Texas or New York and buys a whole bunch of Antminers for BTC mining, I think it will be pretty darn obvious what's going on.

Re: White House proposes 30 percent tax on electricity used for crypto mining

#90

Post by ETH_start »

shadowgovt wrote: post #57
ETH_start wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and while I'm pro-ETH, I'd prefer if Ethereum doesn't surpass Bitcoin as a result of the government abandoning fairness and neutrality, and discriminating agaist some uses of electricity over others.

By what principle is the government constrained from discriminating against some uses of electricity?

By the principle that people should be free to expend their resources on whatever they want, whether it's generating crypto, running high-powered gaming computers, or displaying abstract art. When someone buys electricity, does it belong to them, or some totalitarian government that micromanages its private citizens actions? If the former, then what peaceful behavior one uses their electricity for should be of no concern to the laws that restrict our behavior.

If the environmental costs of crypto mining are genuinely your concern, the best solution is to advocate an agnostic solution, like restricting CO2 generating sources of energy, or energy consumption for ALL non-essentials (e.g. tourism, video games, crypto, etc).

Singling out crypto for its environmental costs, and calling for targeted restrictions on it that exempt other non-essential uses of energy, suggests a superficial basis for your position, like a negative emotional association, or dislike of crypto proponents.

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