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Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

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Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> theres a million ways to provide this functionality without relying on vendor lock in. they are pretty much working as a mini certificate authority/vendor. Identity systems aren't too technically difficult, the challenge is properly rolling them out and getting mass adoption. Which means getting vendors/users on board. It's a problem solved by power and politics, not technological innovation.

I recall Mozilla tried something similar around a decade ago, which was a good solution but didn't get any adoption. There's also been approaches like OpenID which were once popular, where you can have a single login, but they have the problem of third-parties aggregating the sites you visit. Who uses OpenID today? It's all been replaced by facebook or google login. Part of the difficulty of using secure credentials…

> They also want your biometrics, and keep pushing the narrative that biometrics are for authentication, but biometrics should only represent identity, not authority.

What does "authority" mean here?

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#382
post #359

Ignorant question: Are Passkeys, at some level of abstraction, permanently replacing "something you know" (password) with "something you have"? If I am in some kind of calamity (dropped my phone, got robbed, etc), and I come to a friendly person's house, it sounds to me like I simply would not be able to login to potentially critical services, no matter how much I know , because I don't have anything (the device that…

I like to explain it like this: If you use a password manager today, then you're already essentially using something you have, because you need to be in possession of your login database to retrieve passwords, and nobody can remember that in their head. Passkeys is a formalization of the idea that you should be using a password manager where all the passwords are random uncrackable 32 character strings, and if we add…

> The generalized solution to this is allowing 3rd parties to be your passkey provider, so that you can choose how your passkeys are stored

The password manager I use has no cloud component (which is why I chose it), and addresses this by allowing me to export my password collection to an encrypted backup file.

Would this be a thing that the passkey folks would be OK with? That would ease a lot of my hesitation.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#383
post #357
post #294

The paragraph in the section, "What are passkeys?" tells me that they: are new, are easier, let me use biometrics, and are resistant to attacks. But, it doesn't tell me what passkeys actually are. Compare passkeys to traditional authentication factors. What's a password? A secret word or phrase that only you know. What are biometrics? Parts of your body that can help uniquely identify you, like your fingerprint or re…

You need to click on the link that is in the post: https://blog.google/technology/safety-security/one-step-clos... > Instead, your phone will store a FIDO credential called a passkey which is used to unlock your online account. The passkey makes signing in far more secure, as it’s based on public key cryptography and is only shown to your online account when you unlock your phone. It looks like a token stored on your…

I'm not completely sure, but my understanding is that it's basically the same principle as SSH keypairs, with the added twist that the user never gets direct access to the private keys.

The keys are also per-device, so e.g. if you use your Google account from your phone, your laptop and your workplace PC, there would be three public keys associated with your account.

Because the private key (in principle) doesn't ever need to leave the device, it could be stored in a TPM, Secure Enclave or similar chip. The device itself is also supposed to protect the key with some sort of local authentication, i.e. biometrics or a PIN. That stuff only happens locally on the device though and doesn't involve Google's servers in any way.

Consequently, if you want to log in from a new device, you can't just copy over the key - you have to perform some complicated dance where the new device and an old device that you have already registered work together to generate a new keypair for the new device.

If you don't have an old device, e.g. because you're a non-techie and only ever used your account on your phone and now your phone just broke? Though luck, I guess?

Same goes for blocking a key: In theory, you can block access for each device individually - however, you need to be able to access your account using one working device in order to do so.

(There is also the hilariously useless flow of "delegating" to a device, for when you're really really really want to check emails from your friend's phone but also have your own phone right with you in your pocket. It will not actually help you if you want to check emails from your friend's phone because you have forgotten your's. This feature sounds a lot like they needed something to respond with if someone asks about logging in from 3rd party devices - without making that usecase actually practical.)

So I guess all that does make stealing the private key somewhat hard: Phishing is out of the question as the user can't access the key even if they wanted to. Even if you got hold if the physical device, you'd have to get the key out of the TPM.

The bigger problems I see is that your account is now tied to your devices instead of, well, you: If someone steals your phone and manages to guess the PIN or get through the biometric auth, they have instant access to everything. On the other hand, if you have no registered device left, you're effectively locked out of your account.

(All that assuming if passkeys were the only option for logging in. As of now, they still seem to plan with passwords as fallback, so that's just hypothetical)

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#384
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to click on the link that is in the post: https://blog.google/technology/safety-security/one-step-clos... > Instead, your phone will store a FIDO credential called a passkey which is used to unlock your online account. The passkey makes signing in far more secure, as it’s based on public key cryptography and is only shown to your online account when you unlock your phone. It looks like a token stored on your…

Why not call it a private key then, we've been handling those since the 70's. They don't need to be rebranded, they need to be taught in high school with the same words we've always used to talk about them.

Given how poorly private keys have done in the end user marketplace so far, they definitely need to be rebranded.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#385
post #357
post #294

The paragraph in the section, "What are passkeys?" tells me that they: are new, are easier, let me use biometrics, and are resistant to attacks. But, it doesn't tell me what passkeys actually are. Compare passkeys to traditional authentication factors. What's a password? A secret word or phrase that only you know. What are biometrics? Parts of your body that can help uniquely identify you, like your fingerprint or re…

You need to click on the link that is in the post: https://blog.google/technology/safety-security/one-step-clos... > Instead, your phone will store a FIDO credential called a passkey which is used to unlock your online account. The passkey makes signing in far more secure, as it’s based on public key cryptography and is only shown to your online account when you unlock your phone. It looks like a token stored on your…

Well, guess it won't work for me. Rooted phone and prone to boot loops and hard resets whenever i get curious with some stuff. Every authenticator stored in the phone can't be recovered when you install a new ROM (google tries to send the authorization pop up to the previous version of the phone and, of course, it'll never get there)

Guess that's the price i pay for using the hardware in a slightly different way than what google and the manufacturer wanted me to.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#386
post #357
post #294

The paragraph in the section, "What are passkeys?" tells me that they: are new, are easier, let me use biometrics, and are resistant to attacks. But, it doesn't tell me what passkeys actually are. Compare passkeys to traditional authentication factors. What's a password? A secret word or phrase that only you know. What are biometrics? Parts of your body that can help uniquely identify you, like your fingerprint or re…

You need to click on the link that is in the post: https://blog.google/technology/safety-security/one-step-clos... > Instead, your phone will store a FIDO credential called a passkey which is used to unlock your online account. The passkey makes signing in far more secure, as it’s based on public key cryptography and is only shown to your online account when you unlock your phone. It looks like a token stored on your…

So it's like a private key but you can't access or manage it, as it's owned by Google/Apple/Microsoft?

How convenient!

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#387

Argh. Passwords are amazing. I loathe many of the attempts at replacing them simply because the _average_ user has proven to be unable to manage them. The three factors of authentication are a thing because they all protect against somewhat orthogonal threat vectors. Possession "have" is nice because it binds the authentication to a single thing in the real world (as opposed to some digital thing that can be copied e…

> we need to work on fusing all the factor-types into a single strong 3-factor auth

Would this not make logging into things three times more painful? Even just using 2FA is a pain right now.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not call it a private key then, we've been handling those since the 70's. They don't need to be rebranded, they need to be taught in high school with the same words we've always used to talk about them.

Why not call passwords private words? We've been using words even longer. The answer is that they're being used to pass an authentication challenge. Pass + key is no different.

There's already nomenclature for that too. Auth keys vs signing keys.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how passkeys explicitly reaches that end goal, when all of that is already currently possible without passkeys?

You can share passwords easily, I don't think you can trivially share passkeys.

You can trivially share passkeys with others, at least on all apple devices:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/iphone/iph0dd1796bb/16...

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not call it a private key then, we've been handling those since the 70's. They don't need to be rebranded, they need to be taught in high school with the same words we've always used to talk about them.

Given how poorly private keys have done in the end user marketplace so far, they definitely need to be rebranded.

Every time I notice a rebranding I assume they're trying to hide something from me. Maybe that's just me.
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