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“A Great Ox Stands on My Tongue”: The Pitfalls of Latin Translation

antigonejournal.com

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Re: “A Great Ox Stands on My Tongue”: The Pitfalls of Latin Translation

#61
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there some way that it's a more direct descendant of Latin than any other Romance language is?

I'm not a linguist nor a Romansh speaker but my understanding has always been that at its core it is very much still a Latin dialect, thus I'm surprised by all the downvote hate I received.

I wouldn't be surprised if some native speakers, or maybe other Swiss people, said "it's really still Latin -- that's why it's so hard to understand!" or something.

But if so, I think they'd effectively be making up a story to account for Romansh's distinctiveness. I was just looking at some a couple of days ago (as a friend is traveling in Switzerland); I know Latin well, and what I saw was extremely different from Latin, in terms of sound changes, vocabulary changes, and grammatical changes.

Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh_language there are typical Romance evolutions like

* fixed subject-verb-object word order (instead of Latin's variable word order that often prefers subject-object-verb)

* no case inflections (instead of Latin's case inflections)

* plurals apparently derived from Latin accusative plural (not nominative plural)

* compound perfect tense ("have done")

* definite articles (Latin has none)

* many systematic sound changes from Latin (all Romance languages have these, and which specific ones occur tends to define the sound of a specific Romance language)

And unlike other Romance languages (or Latin) it has "numerous Germanic loanwords":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh_language#Germanic_loan...

My best guess is that the idea of Romansh as distinctively close to Latin is a myth or misconception.

Here's "The Fox and the Crow" in a poetic Latin version and a prose Romansh version (the latter from Wikipedia):

Cum de fenestra corvus raptum caseum Comesse vellet, celsa residens arbore, Vulpes hunc vidit, deinde sic coepit loqui: "O qui tuarum, corve, pennarum est nitor! Quantum decoris corpore et vultu geris! Si vocem haberes, nulla prior ales foret."

La vulp era puspè ina giada fomentada. Qua ha ella vis sin in pign in corv che tegneva in toc chaschiel en ses pichel. Quai ma gustass, ha ella pensà, ed ha clamà al corv: «Tge bel che ti es! Sche tes chant è uschè bel sco tia parita, lur es ti il pli bel utschè da tuts».

These aren't directly parallel in meaning, so they're not easy to compare word-for-word. Apart from pretty big sound changes, I notice three grammatical changes: that compound perfect ("ha ella pensà, ed ha clamà al corv" 'she (has) thought, and she (has) shouted to the crow'), the use of a relative in making an exclamation ("tge bel che ti es" 'how beautiful (that) you are'), and the use of separate words for comparisons and superlatives ("il pli bel utschè" 'the more beautiful bird' → 'the most beautiful bird'). (Latin would say "avis bellissima".)

Re: “A Great Ox Stands on My Tongue”: The Pitfalls of Latin Translation

#62

> For over a thousand years, nobody has been brought up to speak [Latin] naturally at home Uh, except Montaigne.

> For over a thousand years, nobody has been brought up to speak [Latin] naturally at home I know it is a very small number of people, and perhaps not Latin as it was spoken in Rome, but I think an argument could be made that Romansh is a direct descendant of Latin still actively spoken today.

The Roma have been trying to claim lineage with Rome for a very long time, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who is aware of the Roma. Apparently if they say it loud enough and often enough it becomes true. After all, they are now called Roma.

Re: “A Great Ox Stands on My Tongue”: The Pitfalls of Latin Translation

#63
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a linguist nor a Romansh speaker but my understanding has always been that at its core it is very much still a Latin dialect, thus I'm surprised by all the downvote hate I received.

I wouldn't be surprised if some native speakers, or maybe other Swiss people, said "it's really still Latin -- that's why it's so hard to understand!" or something. But if so, I think they'd effectively be making up a story to account for Romansh's distinctiveness. I was just looking at some a couple of days ago (as a friend is traveling in Switzerland); I know Latin well, and what I saw was extremely different from…

OK, I translated the English translation of the Romansh story into Latin so that we can directly compare the two.

Vulpes iterum esuriebat. | La vulp era puspè ina giada fomentada.

Ibi corvum in abie vidit, qui fragmen casei rostro tenebat. | Qua ha ella vis sin in pign in corv che tegneva in toc chaschiel en ses pichel.

"Hunc vellem," pensavit, et clamavit ad corvum: | Quai ma gustass, ha ella pensà, ed ha clamà al corv:

"Quam pulcher es! | «Tge bel che ti es!

Si cantus tuus tam bellus quam vultus tuus est, tu bellissima omnium avium es!" | Sche tes chant è uschè bel sco tia parita, lur es ti il pli bel utschè da tuts».

(Some Romansh words whose likely Latin ancestors I didn't use, because it was less idiomatic, or sometimes actually grammatically impossible: era < erat, fomentada < fames, gustass < gustavissem, ella < illa, parita < apparentia, pli < plus, tuts < totos. I probably missed some others by not noticing the etymology.)

Re: “A Great Ox Stands on My Tongue”: The Pitfalls of Latin Translation

#64
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "spud"? That manages to seem both incomprehensible and very offensive at once, which an impressive trick. And not impressive in a good way.

I am not really sure what your issue is. You don’t know what it means but think it sounds bad? So I’m a bad person for using it?

What does "a spud" mean to you in this context?

Re: “A Great Ox Stands on My Tongue”: The Pitfalls of Latin Translation

#65
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not really sure what your issue is. You don’t know what it means but think it sounds bad? So I’m a bad person for using it?

What does "a spud" mean to you in this context?

A stodgy and self-serious person.

Re: “A Great Ox Stands on My Tongue”: The Pitfalls of Latin Translation

#66
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "a spud" mean to you in this context?

A stodgy and self-serious person.

Huh. It just means a potato to me (Brit).

I suppose, but OTOH, this is not at all a serious translation. It's at heart an extended joke.

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