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Vacations in the Soviet Union

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Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#301

Post by int_19h »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #65
snickerbockers wrote: post #6

>It encouraged workers to vacation with groups of relative strangers as opposed to their friends and families. maybe it's just because I don't have much of a social circle, but this seems appealing to me.

Agreed. So many articles and discussions these days about how everyone is so lonely and isolated. The article seems to want to imply this system is kind of a bad thing, or at least weird, but I have trouble seeing anything but good things in it.

Imagine being stuck doing social activities with someone you find very unpleasant for two weeks.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#302

Post by FooBarWidget »

krzyk wrote: post #186
FooBarWidget wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be surprised to find out that outside of HN, not many people use Internet freedom as a prime measurement of dystopia. As a techie I am personally also very annoyed at the lack of Internet freedom. But as a Chinese I also recognize that there are many more aspects in life and society that are more important than Internet freedom, and that China scores pretty high at (especially in historic context).

Like the right to protest?

Well people protested against 0-covid during a time that the media reported as "Xi wants to maintain 0-covid forever because he wants more control". Mere days later, 0-covid was lifted. Sounds like a prime example of "the expected dystopia never materializes" to me.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#303

Post by quacked »

int_19h wrote: post #297
quacked wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which, despite the many issues with the Soviet economy, is obviously not true. The first thing I hear from any ex-Soviet who grew up in the USSR is how their lives were impacted by the constant shortages and censorship of issues with the supply chain. There's a classic joke from the USSR that goes: "Comrade, aren't you excited for when the USA finally falls?" "No, who will we buy our grain from?" Another one: "Isn'…

My favorite one went like this: A guy walks into the store, looks mournfully at the bare shelves, and asks the worker at the counter, "So, comrade, you don't have any meat today, do you?" "Comrade, did you not read the sign at the entrance? This is a seafood market; we don't have any fish . The meat shop is across the road - they don't have any meat."

I've been trying to remember this joke for so long, thank you!

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#304

Post by FooBarWidget »

catiopatio wrote: post #188
FooBarWidget wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be surprised to find out that outside of HN, not many people use Internet freedom as a prime measurement of dystopia. As a techie I am personally also very annoyed at the lack of Internet freedom. But as a Chinese I also recognize that there are many more aspects in life and society that are more important than Internet freedom, and that China scores pretty high at (especially in historic context).

When you dismissively say “internet freedom”, what you really mean is “free expression”, “freedom of association”, “right to peaceably assembly”, and “right to petition your government for a redress of grievances”. Even this photo is still censored: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man

I'll give you something much simpler than all of those things: having enough food, having housing that doesn't leak, having running water, having electricity, having access to schooling, having toilets, not having nearly every street in the city be a dirty mud pool full of trash, having safe streets mostly devoid of violent crimes.

None of those things were a given when I grew up. Those things ard still not a given in many countries in which the west tried to forcefully introduce western liberal democracy, where they all focus on things like "freedom of association" at the expense of freedom from poverty.

When you are poor, you are not free, no matter how much you can voice your opinion.

I am sorry but seeing my parents and grandparents working their asses off in a society where your next meal is not guaranteed, lifting 800M people out of poverty, seeing my hometown stop being a trashy mudpool and seeing the elimination of child abductions, count for much more to me than any amount of VPN annoyance. In the grand scheme of things, these are still literally the best 30 years out of 3000 years.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#305

Post by FooBarWidget »

fifilura wrote: post #213
FooBarWidget wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be surprised to find out that outside of HN, not many people use Internet freedom as a prime measurement of dystopia. As a techie I am personally also very annoyed at the lack of Internet freedom. But as a Chinese I also recognize that there are many more aspects in life and society that are more important than Internet freedom, and that China scores pretty high at (especially in historic context).

...said the Russians. Until they got drafted into an illegal war...

I am not Russian and China is not Russia

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#306

Post by int_19h »

CrackerNews wrote: post #240
legitster wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can at least appreciate someone who advocates for non-Marxist or Leninist forms of communism or just socialism in general. But there has been a remarkable rise of young people who now defend Leninist communism! I think for a lot of people, it's intellectual junk food. A Marxist revolution has a low risk of actually happening in the modern world. And rather than educating yourself on policy and working on advocacy,…

It's the "intellectual junk food" behind the USSR and China turning from backwards peasant conditions to rival global powers. Orthodox Marxist theory States that society must be advanced enough to reach a socialist phase. The nature of the class-based Hegelian dialectics that leads to communism is nebulous and unclear IMO, but I interpret it as something like the fall of feudalism.

If what you care about is rivalling global powers, it's hard to beat US at this game. Conversely, does it really matter one way or the other if the citizens don't see the benefits? E.g. speaking of backwards peasant conditions: USSR had restrictions on peasants moving around until 1974 - before then, most peasants simply weren't issued internal passports.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#307

Post by int_19h »

medvezhenok wrote: post #202
bequanna wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One explanation I've found pretty accurate: When the young start to become educated (late teens, early 20's) they face the realization that they will be entering the world on the bottom of the economic totem pole. There are two primary responses to this: 1. Realize that the real world is competitive and difficult and much self-improvement and hard work will be needed to thrive. These people put their heads down and g…

Sort of. I think it's more nuanced than that. Communism rebalances the relative worth of people in society. I.e. my grandfather, an engineer, earned less than a factory worker. An average or passing artist could earn a decent living in the Soviet Union, compared to having scraps today (in relative terms). I notice this calculus as I have an artistic career and a software career. I would like to pursue the artistic ca…

An average artist who toed the party line. Let's not forget about "degenerate art" and all the other censorship.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#308

Post by int_19h »

dubcanada wrote: post #161
0xDEF wrote: post #38

It's fascinating how the ideology of Marxism–Leninism (Communism) today is more popular than ever among young people in former capitalist heartlands like the US, Canada and UK. A simple European-style welfare state with universal healthcare is all you need to satisfy 90% of people but the elites in the US and the UK refuse to provide that.

Is it? I don't really see any surge of young communism ideologies... If anything I'd say it is exactly as popular as it's always been. I cannot speak to any but Canada, but the MOST people here do not want pure communism, they want Scandinavian/Nordic socialism. Our policies tend to venture into a weird combination of that and American policy copies, so we end up with a very weird mix.

I don't know if it's more popular in absolute terms, but it's more acceptable to be upfront about it, so it pops up in places that seemingly don't or shouldn't have that kind of affiliation. Here's an example:

https://archive.fo/XVGA8

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#309

Post by int_19h »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #89
0xDEF wrote: post #38

It's fascinating how the ideology of Marxism–Leninism (Communism) today is more popular than ever among young people in former capitalist heartlands like the US, Canada and UK. A simple European-style welfare state with universal healthcare is all you need to satisfy 90% of people but the elites in the US and the UK refuse to provide that.

I think Euro-socialism is what most of those kids want, whether they are aware of putting it in those terms or not. The culture wars seem to dictate that there are huge contingents of tankies among the youth, but that doesn't really seem to be the case on the ground (i.e. not on Twitter). The DSA, the biggest, by far, left-org in the US appears, at least to me, to be pushing a platform indistinguishable from a Euro m…

I don't think there's a coherent political goal for the Western activist left. There's a laundry list of wishes, and a general vague notion that they can't be obtained "because capitalism". From there it quickly devolves into guillotine memes and such, but I don't think there are many people who are even well versed in Marxism or other hard left ideologies and actively pursuing their goals - it's mostly just venting.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#310

Post by WeylandYutani »

waboremo wrote: post #115
boveus wrote: post #79

>It encouraged workers to vacation with groups of relative strangers as opposed to their friends and families. This can actually work out well. I experienced something similar in the US while on vacation. I was traveling with someone from Glenwood Springs, CO to Denver, CO via Amtrak. We went to the dining car for lunch an since there were two of us and space is at a premium, the Amtrak policy was to seat us with one…

That's fascinating, it's both unplanned and also non-transactional. I don't think many environments like that exist past school years.

I was taking my mother to hospital today. While waiting I spent my time people watching.

It's the last place in the Netherlands where your social and financial status has no value and everyone is truly equal. You see all walks of life and everyone is in it together at the mercy of science they don't understand.

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