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Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

covertactionmagazine.com

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Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#431

Post by lazide »

fasterik wrote: post #397
lazide wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying people are a mix of good and bad, and there are various levels of power and wealth inherent to the world, and that causes an inherent tension and level of corruption which you see manifest itself in all power structures around us. Including corporations. If you have a CONCRETE proposal for some kind of corporation which somehow counteracts the negative influences of huma…

>I'm also noting that those are already influences on the current formation and existence of the structures around us, so assuming that this is a new idea isn't helping anyone. [...] I am hearing that you don't seem to be aware of the active and ongoing work to stop corruption and produce better outcomes in the governments and corporations that currently exist. I never said these are new ideas or that there aren't al…

You keep insisting there is a solution here - aka, that this is a solvable problem. Aka, that there is an ‘end’.

That is what I am pointing out is fundamentally naive and impossible.

There is no possible state here where there is a system that is fundamentally incorruptible and fair, because that isn’t what people want, need, or how people work.

Even some options you mentioned (autonomous agents) wouldn’t produce such an outcome, but would just be a tool of despotic behavior (and probably worse than most) as they would be inevitably manipulated or compromised because you don’t seem to understand the nature of the actual problem.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#432

Post by penneallagricia »

nullityrofl wrote: post #317
penneallagricia wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep providing more and more evidence that the US is involved in spying most of its allies. Notice how almost all of these cases are about some 3rd country assisting the US in spying someone else? You are just proving that the US is not behaving like a positive force for the world, which was entirely my point. I never said that European countries are saints. I just fear with good reason a US hegemony given their…

You mean 2 of 5 and those 2 still involve the EU spying on it's allies, right? So all 5 examples of the EU spying on its allies a thing that you said there was "no proof whatsoever" of? I never said that the US is or isn't a positive net on the world: I said that spying isn't evidence of your point. Because by your definition no country is positive net on the world.

> I never said that the US is or isn't a positive net on the world: I said that spying isn't evidence of your point. Because by your definition no country is positive net on the world.

Spoken like a true devil's advocate. Apparently you have no opinion, you just want to refute mine. The fervor with which you scrambled for evidence to only tangentially counter my argument suggests me otherwise, but oh well.

If all you want is evidence that the US is currently not a positive net for the world, you just need to look at the work CIA has done. You won't find anything comparable on any other country. And the fact that every nation has secret services means nothing. It's how powerful those services are and what they are used for.

By the way you realize that other countries being bad doesn't make the US any better? If nothing you're helping me prove that NATO altogether is a band of criminals, which I might have to thank you for, afterall.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#433

Post by Aerbil313 »

copper-float wrote: post #166
mandmandam wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these sort of issues where people overwhelmingly feel one way, and the political establishment feels another? Yeah, those are all strangely absent. I feel that Sanders' nomination campaigns epitomized this divide: He spoke for the people. Many more people donated for him than any other candidate, his supporters were diverse and enthusiastic. He was the number one most popular politician in the entire country. Yet m…

We need to shift the dynamic in America from relying on these media conglomerates, to individuals doing their own research on things. Everyone knows the news media is rigged beyond saving, we need to let them die out, it's what they all deserve for betraying the trust of the people.

> We need to shift the dynamic...

Ah, sweet flower child.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#434

Post by somedude895 »

kelipso wrote: post #139
penneallagricia wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-USAer I'm so glad he went beyond domestic spying. He showed the world how the USA spied on many of its supposed allies. The scope of the system of espionage they built is orwellian and just astonishing. If there is one evil force conspiring for global domination that is the NSA and whichever institution they take order from. Thanks again, Snowden. What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from…

The US has been the sole superpower for more than 3 decades now. Its relationship to its allies are more like relationships with vassals, see geopolitical interactions with European countries, Japan, South Korea.

Those relationships are mutually beneficial. Germany has been able to underspend on its military for decades because of US protection. Obviously the US is going to want to know what the German government is up to in regards to, say, Russia.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#435

Post by Aerbil313 »

colordrops wrote: post #46
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #32

Just look at this thread of “hackers” saying “well the law is the law.” It’s an embarrassment the degree to which smart educated leading edge communities have totally and utterly forfeited their own power for the security blanket of these domination based systems. Actually it’s worse, the official ethos of success in America is now some cynical mix of “If you’re not scamming someone you’re not trying” and “Altruism i…

I was prepping to reply and you hit my point in your last paragraph. Through my youth I always assumed that people either saw through the corruption or had the wool pulled over their eyes, but the after working at a couple companies with several ex military contractor types and some some new inlaws, I've realized that for some people, tribe is above all. They are patriotic and loyal to the US system, which can do no…

They are biological instincts, it's normal. What you can do is choosing your tribe as something other than the default one.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#437

Post by zirgs »

drewcoo wrote: post #154
lettergram wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a democracy almost everything should be public. Our weapons for sure, perhaps not where they are located, but what we pay for yes.

I'd hope for more than just transparency. Even public information about our military is not commonly known, so we don't have a well-informed citizenry. How many Americans are aware of this, clearly public info because Al Jazeera has it? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/10/infographic-us-mili...

This looks good. The info is a bit outdated though. I hope that the USA will increase its military presence in Eastern Europe.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#438

Post by ineedasername »

bombolo wrote: post #414
ineedasername wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not either or. But in this situation the Swedish people have a better chance of influencing their own government than the one trying to get it to do what it wants. In this situation the boss is powerless over swedish people if the goons lose their power.

LOL because they'd call a vote for this right? Except very extreme fringes, every big party will bend over to do whatever USA tells them to do, regardless of what their voting base thinks. See how they are changing the laws so that it's legal to send kurds in turkey to die.

Kick the big party out of office. If a someone can't hurt you except by getting a someone else to do it, and that person only has the power you give it, deal with that person.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that the statement "my most immediate concern..." is incorrect. What's more likely: 1) demands from Swedish citizens to the USA actually stopping the USA from using Sweden in its geopolitics? Or 2) Demands from Swedish citizens to the government they empower?

If it's only the extreme fringes, then maybe most people in Sweden simply don't have much of a problem with it or don't care either way, or have more immediately pressing problems to deal with, or something else. Whatever the reason, if you don't like it then your most immediate problem is dealing with the roadblocks to getting your government to stop doing it.

EDIT: Maybe we're just talking past each other. The phrasing "most immediate concern" is something I equate to "the problem I have to deal with first". That's why I see that statement of problematics. If you were able to in some way deal with the USA first without changing Swedish politics at all then some other geopolitical power will quickly fill the power gap afterwards and play the same games.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#439

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

bombolo wrote: post #427
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so I don't understand why people aren't equally appalled the answer here is the difference between "me" and "people"

"people in the same country as me, who are in the same set of risks as me". Don't pretend you didn't understand just to comment pointless nitpicking.

what makes you think they view things that way, rather than just you viewing things that way?

after all, humans have a tendency to think other people think the same way they do

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#440

Post by bombolo »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #439
bombolo wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"people in the same country as me, who are in the same set of risks as me". Don't pretend you didn't understand just to comment pointless nitpicking.

what makes you think they view things that way, rather than just you viewing things that way? after all, humans have a tendency to think other people think the same way they do

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