New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#841

Post by tohnjitor » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #818

tohnjitor wrote: post #786

They also keep threatening to ban the replacement of existing gas appliances when they cannot be repaired. I will be moving my family out of state before this happens. Any of you electronauts interested in a ~5000sqft home in the middle of a picturesque village with no crime? You'll have to call the gas company about removing the hookup after you move in.

Lots of places like this don’t have natural gas. It’s often propane tanks, which have their own issues. Natural gas plumbing is not some magical, amazing thing that magically delivers a much-maligned but otherwise perfect product. It’s an explosive gas that’s piped through underground pipes with fancy pressure regulators and hopefully ends up somewhere useful. Those pipes are expensive, the regulators are complex and…

They're also banning propane devices.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#842

Post by yunohn » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

DocTomoe wrote: post #784

yunohn wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kindly do not make ad-absurdum arguments. My point is that you need to weigh the advantages and disadvantages. Some individuals wanting baba-ganoush in NY should not be the reason to avoid electrification for the others. I appreciate that forced illegalisation is off-putting, but like others have said, renters don’t get a choice and landlords will avoid all expenditures. We need a way to help the majority wean off ga…

> Some individuals wanting baba-ganoush in NY should not be the reason to avoid electrification for the others. What stops the others from having an electric stove, while natural gas infrastructure is still available? Are there living units in NY that have natural gas, but no electricity? > renters don’t get a choice Electric stovetops are about 30 dollars for two-plate solutions, if you decide for yourself that natu…

Gas is not charged by solely by consumption, so connecting an electric stovetop doesn’t solve the costs, or solve the safety of having a gas connection, or solve the space lost to the gas stove. Why have all that extra hassle for something that is probably more harmful to the environment and your own health?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#843

Post by dmix » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

hotpotamus wrote: post #326

PM_me_your_math wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in the metro area for quite a long time, I am qualified to tell you that few things NY does is exemplary of success. Most energy or public works projects turn into a total debacle. Shoreham Nuclear Power station is a good example. Billions spent, and they never even turned it on. Residents are still paying that down. Endless road project cycling. I'm not sure there has been a single transportation projec…

And yet I believe it is considered the capital of the modern world in some sense, isn't it? (My perception as someone who's never visited the NE US). You choose to live there, or at least chose to live there for quite a long time as you said, so there must be some reason.

NY state is consistently ranked 2nd after California for the # of residents leaving. New York saw a net loss of over 75 thousand families last year.

Immigration helps offset those numbers a bit, because like you said people see NY(C) as the capital and plenty of people still want to live there.

Deterioration happens slowly and builds up over time. Humans are very resilient and adaptive to things getting worse (as every war has shown). When things happen slowly you don't notice how bad it is and forget what is lost. The older (usually conservative) people who notice the deterioration are often dismissed as cranks, boomers, out of touch, etc. So immigrants/young college kids still flock to NY and start building a life there before noticing that living there as an adult is way harder than it should be.

Moving states typically requires things to get really bad and people often don't understand the cause/effect of shitty gov and deteriorating cultures.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#844

Post by williamcotton » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

animitronix wrote: post #792

williamcotton wrote: post #762

As someone who worked professionally as a line cook in my younger years the benefits of cooking over a flame are primarily in fine and quick control over temperature. Moving the pan, lifting the pan, adjusting the temperature, etc, are key to a good number of dishes. You lose that fine-grained control with the various electric stovetops.

You're incapable of lifting a pan of an electric burner?

The temperature decreases very quickly compared to a flame. When you’re cooking with things with very low burning points (like cream) being able to have that kind of fine control is important.

Also, moving the pan off of the center of the burner and cooking parts at different temperatures is required for some dishes.

These were techniques I was trained to use.

I haven’t worked in a kitchen in over 20 years so maybe the technology has improved to the point where this is possible with induction pans.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#845

Post by cmclaughlin » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:32 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #834

beepbooptheory wrote: post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portable induction stoves were used in a few kitchens I've worked in, but as a supplementary tool, e.g., the pastry guy needs to make jam while the line is really busy. The main thing that makes electric stoves hard for a professional kitchen is ultimately speed and space. You need every single burner during a rush, and you need to be reacting quick, and there is usually very limited space. If I need to stop the heat…

> An electric top requires you to actually move the pan off the burner to somewhere else Is this true of induction? I've never used induction for anything more complicated than pasta, but I would have thought that since the surface (basically) doesn't get hot, turning it off would function the same way as a gas stove.

No that’s not true for induction - the controls are immediate and very precise.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#846

Post by armatav » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:32 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #634

armatav wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m from a third world country, and now live in the Bay. To give you context our place in SA was having a couple hours loadshedding a day, and here in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods our power was gone for three fucking weeks, and just yesterday was in and out three times. It’s absolutely third world country level when the weather is anything but exactly 70 degrees. You have zero idea what you’re talking about, t…

> I’m from a third world country, and now live in the Bay > You have zero idea what you’re talking about Same here. I've endured the sweltering tropical heat in a polluted developing-country city during power cuts, so I well understand what I'm talking about. > To give you context our place in SA was having a couple hours loadshedding a day, and here in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods our power was gone for three…

You understand that Palo Alto et co are on different power grids to Atherton/LAH/MV etc right?

Highly localized across the entire bay for the atmospheric river a couple weeks ago.

Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#847

Post by brahbrah » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:35 PM UTC

jablongo wrote: post #832

nullc wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What state doesn't produce electricity using fossil fuels? At midnight last night, which wasn't atypical, California was 50% natural gas and the total CO2 emitting is even greater due to imports and CO2 emitting renewables.

Vermont is mostly green via hydroelectric and wind

Vermont also consumes ~3x more energy (all energy, not just electricity) than it produces and has the lowest energy consumption of any state.

https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=VT

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#848

Post by cmclaughlin » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #658

rayiner wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and if you’re talking about poor people, what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction? And will they have induction safe cookware? Banning gas stoves would be a huge blow to all the immigrants who rely on cooking techniques (like woks) that don’t work well on resistance coils, and require expensive special equipment to work on induction.

> And will they have induction safe cookware? Cant you just put a steel plate under any pan, and then it’s induction compatible? Ideally you’d have compatible pans, but you don’t have to.

Yes it’s possible to use a transfer plate to adapt cookware that’s not induction compatible, but it’s very inefficient. One of the benefits I appreciate of induction cooking is not heating up my house while cooking - a transfer plate would negate that.

I understand not everyone wants to buy or can afford new cookware, but cast iron pans are very cheap. Also see brands such as t-fal that make affordable non-stick aluminum cookware with a small steel bottom to make them induction compatible.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#849

Post by cmclaughlin » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #682

eulgro wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Resistance cooktops are slow and weak Resistive is just fine. No way I'm throwing out my 20 years old stove to save 2 minutes boiling water. Once the coil is red hot there's virtually no time difference with induction.

I think the reason people usually don’t like resistive cooktops is that they change temperature slowly so it is hard to adjust things to the right temperature.

They also transfer heat to the house, whereas induction does not. Huge benefit in hotter climates

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#850

Post by prottog » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:02 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #737

jrpt wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's really that important to you, you could buy an electric burner or use other types of electric cooking devices. Also, the poster is correct that it's not the function of government to tell people what type of kitchen appliances they can use in their own home. We would typically consider that governmental overreach. It's telling that society is becoming so accepting of being told by the government what they can…

LOL, are you for real? Have you seen construction codes? This stuff happens all over the world and in places with solid democracies. Turns out safety and efficiency need to be mandated because the free market will kill people with 0 remorse and the average person has ~0 market power. Progress is many people working together, through ever more complex communal initiatives such as corporations, NGOs and yes, government…

> Turns out safety and efficiency need to be mandated

In a solid democracy making real progress, the onus is on the one introducing the regulation to prove that safety and efficiency will in fact be advanced via said regulation. I don't think that bar is passed here.