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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#731

Post by usrusr »

tptacek wrote: post #609
rayiner wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and if you’re talking about poor people, what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction? And will they have induction safe cookware? Banning gas stoves would be a huge blow to all the immigrants who rely on cooking techniques (like woks) that don’t work well on resistance coils, and require expensive special equipment to work on induction.

People in China routinely use woks on electric stoves; they're just as common in China as they are here. There's a lot of mythology about woks and wok hei, most of which is based on people confusing restaurant cooking techniques with home cooking. This issue isn't racially coded.

It's a recurring pattern: people not being able to tell "like in the country I/my ancestors came from" apart from "like in the decade/century I/my ancestors left the old country". In the emigrant's mind, the old country is forever locked in the old times. Can't really blame them for it, it's a natural mistake to make, but a mistake nonetheless.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#732

Post by oblio »

lostlogin wrote: post #662
JakeAl wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love my gas stove, won't live without one, and it keeps my home warm in the winter even when the power goes out. Gas is much more cost effective than electric as well. Also lobe my gas water heater for the same reason. Hot baths during blackouts. This whole "gas is bad for the environment" is bunk when fossil fuels are required to generate al that electricity and that doesn't even get to the cost and efficiency of st…

> This whole "gas is bad for the environment" is bunk when fossil fuels are required to generate al that electricity and that doesn't even get to the cost and efficiency of storing it. Probably depends where you are, as this is very much not the case for everyone.

And even if it were true, trends matter. It's not the case now and for sure it's going to be less the case 5, 10 years from now.

We can't build new stuff which is practically obsolete on day 1 and a burden just 10 years from now.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#733

Post by christophilus »

giardini wrote: post #639
tpmx wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think; for many of us: It's quite fascinating to see a debate between the benefits of electricity and gas in 2023 . Energy technology is so weirdly unevenly distributed. This debate could have taken place in 1940 - with the exact same arguments.

Which is why I still use a wood-burning stove to cook on and and heat during the winter.

Not sure if you’re serious or not, but Ben Falk does this. I love his setup.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hNV6C7u9ipE&pp=ygUTQmVuIGZhbGs...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#734

Post by doikor »

bretticus wrote: post #709
qwytw wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction I'd assume nobody would install a resistance stove in a new apartment (since this only applies to those)

They certainly won’t install an expensive induction stove in housing for poor people

Induction cooktops are not expensive anymore. This would have been an argument 10 or 15 years ago but not today.

The price difference between a resistive 4 element resistive and a inductive cooktop is like 20€ maybe 30€ tops. So a cheap one will cost you between 200€ to 250€

(maybe the pricing in US is totally different but that is what you pay for the cheap stuff here in Finland)

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#735

Post by DocTomoe »

bretticus wrote: post #709
qwytw wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction I'd assume nobody would install a resistance stove in a new apartment (since this only applies to those)

They certainly won’t install an expensive induction stove in housing for poor people

It is arguments like these that make me happy I live in a country where you rent a flat and bring your own kitchen (and appliances).

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#736

Post by Aeolun »

jnwatson wrote: post #411
iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I don’t buy the climate argument. However, banning gas appliances comes from the same place as banning lead paint. Gas appliances are a major source of indoor pollution. Gas heating leaks pollution inside the home, especially as furnaces age. Plus, many residents don’t own their own property. This helps protect renters.

You can regulate the safe use of gas without banning it.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#737

Post by oblio »

jrpt wrote: post #635
ahoy wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

If it's really that important to you, you could buy an electric burner or use other types of electric cooking devices. Also, the poster is correct that it's not the function of government to tell people what type of kitchen appliances they can use in their own home. We would typically consider that governmental overreach. It's telling that society is becoming so accepting of being told by the government what they can…

LOL, are you for real?

Have you seen construction codes?

This stuff happens all over the world and in places with solid democracies. Turns out safety and efficiency need to be mandated because the free market will kill people with 0 remorse and the average person has ~0 market power.

Progress is many people working together, through ever more complex communal initiatives such as corporations, NGOs and yes, government.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#738

Post by oblio »

goodluckchuck wrote: post #698
simplotek wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you buy a home and want it to have a gas stove, why is it the state government's place to say that you can't do so, for your own health? This is the wrong question to be made. You should ask what should be the safety standards you need to adhere to ensure health risks are mitigated. The reason why this sort of thing must at all times be regulated, without any exception, is that the personal interest of a corpora…

First, obviously regulation is a conspiracy. It will is a coordinated activity by multiple individuals. Second, none of this is an argument to ban natural gas appliances. what is the harm? Is the harm acceptable? Should a person be allowed to except the harm? Can the harm be mitigated by education or change in behavior? And who has the jurisdiction to implement these regulations even if natural gas stoves are in unre…

> It will is a coordinated activity by multiple individuals.

Today I found out that the following are conspiracies:

- corporations

- NGOs

- all government activity

- sports teams

- most human hobbies

- ...

:-))

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#739

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

speakfreely wrote: post #490
pipodeclown wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that even mean? Did you not get the whole, burning hydrocarbons is bad for the climate memo? We have to stop all net carbon emmissions in the next fifteen years or were screwed (propably already are) and twats like you keep going online spouting your 'i don't buy the climate argument' bullshit. We're literally talking about burning hydrocarbons to heat stuff, how the hell can you say that you don't buy the…

You can believe climate change is real and an imminent threat and still hold the position that banning gas stoves is a meaningless, misguided policy that will have no effect on climate change. There is no mutual exclusivity. A typical natural gas stove burner uses around 7,000 to 10,000 BTUs per hour, which translates to about 0.8 to 1.2 pounds of CO2 emissions per hour of use. This doesn't even qualify as a blip on…

giving per person emission numbers isn't meaningful. multiply by a couple billion people and it's a lot more. you're also missing part of the reasoning which is that if you want to also ban gas heating (which produces a lot more CO2) and get rid of the gas pipes, you also want to minimize the number of gas stoves that need to be thrown out.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#740

Post by elif »

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I hooked up my house with indoor air quality monitoring during covid to keep track of CO2 levels as a representation of ventilation levels.

There have been many unintended consequences to what this experience taught me including dehumidifiers, indoor plants, air filters, ventilation schedules, and yes, eliminating natural gas.

NO2, CO2, CO, PM2.5, and VOC would go up to unhealthy levels even with a hood vent and windows open. It would persist for hours even if I opened 5-6 windows, and would permeate the entire house even though I use a Japanese door hanger to keep air in the kitchen isolated. There was simply no choice other than to go electric.

As an aside, i switched from a high end $3k American gas stove to a $80 Japanese induction unit and $500 Toshiba steam/convection oven with automatic recipes and infrared sensors and my control over cooking and cooking speed have both been so much better.

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