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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#561

Post by 0xdead8ead »

Symbiote wrote: post #172
0xdead8ead wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against t…

(The site is blocked in the EU.) Since the NY ban is for new construction, wouldn't the obvious thing be to install more 240V circuits in the new buildings?

I suppose so? Will they? Doubt it.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#562

Post by fallingknife »

NLPaep wrote: post #401
iamdamian wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen evidence that this regulation will prevent the planet from being destroyed. Also, personal health is not something that's generally regulated by the government, despite the potential to cause additional state spending.

It’s not? Drugs are illegal

And how's that going?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#563

Post by [deleted] »

apnew wrote: post #521
ahoy wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

I also _rent_. I hate food cooked on electric stoves, so when I was looking to rent, anything that dint have gas stove was automatic non-starter for me. This whole argument that “you oppose a forced choice so you must hate poor people” is just a straw-man. Just because you prefer things one way doesn’t mean govt has a business telling me how I should cook my food.

[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#564

Post by otterley »

crooked-v wrote: post #544
apnew wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also _rent_. I hate food cooked on electric stoves, so when I was looking to rent, anything that dint have gas stove was automatic non-starter for me. This whole argument that “you oppose a forced choice so you must hate poor people” is just a straw-man. Just because you prefer things one way doesn’t mean govt has a business telling me how I should cook my food.

I suspect you're conflating resistance cooktops (the kind with coils that heat up) and induction cooktops (which use EM fields to transfer energy directly into the pan). Resistance cooktops are slow and weak, but induction cooktops are just plain better than gas (faster to heat across the entire temperature range, better temperature control) in pretty much every case except when needing a pan that doesn't fit the ind…

Induction cooktops are like 3-5x the cost of resistive ones, and so very few homes for rent -even ones with electric cooktops - have them.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#565

Post by otterley »

engineer_22 wrote: post #471
pathartl wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but natural gas isn't pure methane and CO2 isn't good for the brain. Burning something without a vented hood in a closed space can be incredibly dangerous. Especially if you're talking about high rise apartment buildings where... well... hot gas rises.

[flagged]

Can you please make arguments in good faith? You’re being a jerk all over this thread.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#566

Post by ineedasername »

hedora wrote: post #545
nemo44x wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas alliances are significantly cheaper to run. Also perform better. Gas dryers are awesome compared to electric for example. Plus electric goes out often. Gas doesn’t.

This simply isn’t true any more. The price of gas is going up, and the price of electricity is plummeting thanks to renewables. Also, the efficiency of electric ranges has doubled in recent years. Heatpumps are something like 3-10x more efficient than older systems. Our electric dryer greatly outperforms any old gas dryers we had, and it wasn’t significantly more expensive.

>and the price of electricity is plummeting thanks to renewables.

Not according to sources I can find. EIA forecasts for the long term project continued increases through 2050 [1] Maybe in locations elsewhere in the world? Or specific states in the US? Certainly not where I live, which is aggressively pursuing renewables and despite this prices continue to increase, and were doing so before the spike in natural gas prices.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=1-AEO202...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#567

Post by c22 »

analog31 wrote: post #197
tomp wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity is also a centralized protocol, prone to catastrophic failures.

My gas heat goes down if electricity fails.

You can rewire the ignition circuit to a car battery if you're desperate.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#568

Post by GuB-42 »

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

There are actually several reasons.

Climate change is one. Induction stove powered by the latest generation of gas plants are actually more efficient than gas stoves. Of course, they can run off renewable or nuclear energy too.

For health, it is not great, and not all building are equipped with proper ventilation. And yes, it matters to the government, because even the US government will spend money to keep you alive if you are sick, and in the case of gas stoves, it is not just you, it will impact everyone who lives with you, possibly including your children.

And the last one is safety. I don't know the relative fire hazard of electric devices over open flames, but I'd go with the open flame. And sometimes entire buildings blow up because of (sometimes voluntary) gas leaks.

All these may be small effects, but they are real. And electric stoves are good now, especially induction. Gas stoves still have a few advantages, but not as much as they once had. I've even seen clever battery powered stoves, the batteries allowing them to have greater burst power than what the electrical installation can supply, they can even be used as a backup power supply.

Note that I have a gas stove, and I like it very much. But the reason I have it is that we already had gas. If they banned gas for the entire building, I would have no problem switching to something else (induction).

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#569

Post by amluto »

gwbas1c wrote: post #251
tomp wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a doctor? This one doctor (whom I probably trust the most of online doctors) disagrees. https://peterattiamd.com/putting-out-the-fire-on-the-gas-sto... > For example, the analysis included multiple studies that found an association between gas cooking and respiratory disease in children but variously failed to evaluate parental smoking habits, indoor smoke, pet ownership, or outdoor pollution as other possibl…

Indoor pollution from a gas stove has more to do with how the building was built. Older construction leaks a lot more air than newer construction, primarily due to changes in code. More specifically, the air in an older home, from the 1980s, might change over every four hours or so. In a newer home built to modern building codes, it's eight or ten hours.

Your stove may well cause quite dangerous NOx in rather less than 4 hours:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707/suppl...

See the last page.

What you need is a real vent that vents outside. Or a stove that doesn’t emit NOx (and carbon monoxide, etc).

Frankly this whole thing is a bit absurd. Everyone ought to know that flue gas from a furnace or water heater is extremely dangerous when it ends up indoors. Why are gas stoves ever considered okay?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#570

Post by hedora »

nemo44x wrote: post #517
topaz0 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of the reason for banning gas is not energy but indoor pollution. There's pretty strong and growing evidence that cooking with gas leads to substantial health risks because of various combustion products that end up in your air (especially if not properly vented).

It’s all made up and/or overblown by climate doomers. Vented gas is fine and great and removing them will contribute 0 to climate change.

Natural gas is currently under 25% of US greenhouse emissions, but is on track to be over 50%:

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/climate-risks-natural-gas

Granted, much of that is due to power plants, but residential + commercial is over 10%.

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