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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#551

Post by crooked-v »

ravenstine wrote: post #457
ahoy wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

Uhhh... woe is you? Plenty of non-poor people live with gas stoves, often without fume hoods, and even prefer gas. Not once have I ever felt ill or victimized because I had to cook on gas.

I have a nominally expensive home with a gas stove with one of those terrible recirculating hoods, and at absolute best I feel a kind of lingering regret and annoyance about it. It pumps out so much waste heat that I'd be opening the windows while cooking even if I wasn't also mildly concerned about the whole combustion thing.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#552

Post by pclmulqdq »

amluto wrote: post #502
pclmulqdq wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't use that stove to cook, because if you do, you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone. This is the same kind of "green"-feeling hypocrisy as the plastic bag bans. After Australia banned plastic bags, they found an increased amount of plastic in their landfills. Why? Because people used to re-use them as trash bags and were now buying much th…

> you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone. This is true and entirely misses the point. A gas stove emits NOx. Cooking some foods at high temperature emits particulates. Different cause, different poison. Also, an air filter can easily remove particulates, but getting rid of NOx with anything other than outright replacement of the air is not so easy. edit:…

> ADDITION / CORRECTION This article has been corrected. View the notice.

The studies on this are questionable at best regarding the health effects, and it is disingenuous to say that the science on this is anywhere near settled - plenty of refutations exist out there. If you're worried, open a window.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#553

Post by Slava_Propanei »

pipodeclown wrote: post #475
jnwatson wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy the climate argument. However, banning gas appliances comes from the same place as banning lead paint. Gas appliances are a major source of indoor pollution. Gas heating leaks pollution inside the home, especially as furnaces age. Plus, many residents don’t own their own property. This helps protect renters.

What does that even mean? Did you not get the whole, burning hydrocarbons is bad for the climate memo? We have to stop all net carbon emmissions in the next fifteen years or were screwed (propably already are) and twats like you keep going online spouting your 'i don't buy the climate argument' bullshit. We're literally talking about burning hydrocarbons to heat stuff, how the hell can you say that you don't buy the…

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#554

Post by amluto »

dschuler wrote: post #425
cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Newer gas stoves turn off automatically when they don’t detect a flame, but I’ve only seen those in Europe so far.

I’ve never seen one in the US. In general, gas stoves here are low quality, poorly made, and often very expensive. Fancy ones are shinier but no better.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#555

Post by ZeroGravitas »

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

> But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all.

When you say "dig into the details", do you mean read some libertarian propaganda funded by fossil fuel interests that can barely acknowledge the existence of climate change and hate every single policy ever proposed to deal with it?

We are phasing out fossil fuels.

Some, like airplane fuel are hard to phase out, and we're still going to do it.

Phasing out gas for cooking and heating is a no brainer.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#556

Post by pclmulqdq »

askvictor wrote: post #520
pclmulqdq wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't use that stove to cook, because if you do, you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone. This is the same kind of "green"-feeling hypocrisy as the plastic bag bans. After Australia banned plastic bags, they found an increased amount of plastic in their landfills. Why? Because people used to re-use them as trash bags and were now buying much th…

> I hope you don't use that stove to cook, because if you do, you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone. Really depends on how you cook. If you're not frying, this isn't really a problem. > This is the same kind of "green"-feeling hypocrisy as the plastic bag bans. After Australia banned plastic bags, they found an increased amount of plastic in their landf…

> But a big part of this was to reduce plastic litter. Plastic in landfill isn't really a problem (oil being dug from the ground being put back into the ground). But putting a (small) price on plastics makes people a little less careless with them.

Motte, meet bailey. There is more plastic polluting the environment in Australia thanks to plastic bag bans, and they have been replaced by paper bags which emit 10x more CO2 per bag (or reusable bags that break even on CO2 after a few hundred to a thousand uses). This should be considered a huge L for the "environmentalists" who pushed it, on all fronts.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#557

Post by Slava_Propanei »

hedora wrote: post #515
iamdamian wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen evidence that this regulation will prevent the planet from being destroyed. Also, personal health is not something that's generally regulated by the government, despite the potential to cause additional state spending.

> I haven't seen evidence that this regulation will prevent the planet from being destroyed. There is plenty of evidence that a 100% phase out of natural gas is necessary but not sufficient.

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#558

Post by 0xdead8ead »

brianwawok wrote: post #167
0xdead8ead wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against t…

My best source of heat is burning animals bones, can I be your neighbor?

Anytime, neighbor.

But, for when they come for your natural gas line — https://www.homebiogas.com/

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#559

Post by hedora »

7speter wrote: post #252
8note wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a total ban though? They aren't going to force the gas to be removed from current kitchens and heaters any time soon. There is a prohibition on smoking, kids aren't allowed to buy cigarettes

Theres a comment upthread championing this law because eventually government will ban all the miscreants who use gas powered appliances and heating from using them and using something much more hip and palatable to a subset of voters who can afford expensive house upgrades and electric cars at the snap of a finger.

A top end GE induction range top is $1700. A lower end one is $400.

These are both rounding errors vs. a year of energy bills. If you want something even cheaper (for instance, because you hate your tenants, and they are paying the power bill), resistive ones are still available.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#560

Post by rayiner »

crooked-v wrote: post #544
apnew wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also _rent_. I hate food cooked on electric stoves, so when I was looking to rent, anything that dint have gas stove was automatic non-starter for me. This whole argument that “you oppose a forced choice so you must hate poor people” is just a straw-man. Just because you prefer things one way doesn’t mean govt has a business telling me how I should cook my food.

I suspect you're conflating resistance cooktops (the kind with coils that heat up) and induction cooktops (which use EM fields to transfer energy directly into the pan). Resistance cooktops are slow and weak, but induction cooktops are just plain better than gas (faster to heat across the entire temperature range, better temperature control) in pretty much every case except when needing a pan that doesn't fit the ind…

Yeah, and if you’re talking about poor people, what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction? And will they have induction safe cookware?

Banning gas stoves would be a huge blow to all the immigrants who rely on cooking techniques (like woks) that don’t work well on resistance coils, and require expensive special equipment to work on induction.

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