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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#501

Post by IIAOPSW »

engineer_22 wrote: post #463
ahoy wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

[flagged]

The Metro Statistical Area of the city is 25 million, which differs quite drastically from the de jure municipal and state borders.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#502

Post by amluto »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #459
ahoy wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

I hope you don't use that stove to cook, because if you do, you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone. This is the same kind of "green"-feeling hypocrisy as the plastic bag bans. After Australia banned plastic bags, they found an increased amount of plastic in their landfills. Why? Because people used to re-use them as trash bags and were now buying much th…

> you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone.

This is true and entirely misses the point.

A gas stove emits NOx. Cooking some foods at high temperature emits particulates. Different cause, different poison. Also, an air filter can easily remove particulates, but getting rid of NOx with anything other than outright replacement of the air is not so easy.

edit: NOx is for real, and calling it a “green” issue is disingenuous. As far as I know, NOx emissions from stoves are not a particular threat to neighbors or overall outdoor air quality. But they are substantial when concentrated in a house:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707

(Seriously, look at the last graph in the supplementary material. Admittedly it’s an oven, not a stove, but those levels are no joke and the operating time needed to hit them is low. Baking a pie or cooking a big pot of pasta with a gas oven or stove in a kitchen without proper ventilation is quite unhealthy. And those recirculating carbon filter vents won’t help.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#503

Post by kibwen »

Multicomp wrote: post #407
wingspar wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, it’s a ban on piping gas lines in new construction, not installing gas equipment in existing buildings. In summer 2035, you won’t have any buildings than less than 12 years old with gas available, But, as I understand it from the article, someone could replace their stove or heating system in a building that has pre-ban gas, no problem at any point in the intervening 12 years. Even the winter of 2…

Yeah if anything this will exacerbate the challenge of building new construction because existing buildings will have this valuable utility that new buildings cannot have.

The alternatives to gas are so good these days that there's no way I'd pay to connect any new house to gas.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#504

Post by [deleted] »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #170
seizethecheese wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this consensus opinion? I personally find gas to be far superior. It could be that I’ve used low quality electric.

No lol, until your average restaurant is all electric (it's not), it's very obviously not superior. Induction is better but nothing really beats gas for speed to reach the desired heat level.

[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#505

Post by speakfreely »

ncallaway wrote: post #492
speakfreely wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What can be stepped up fast is wind and solar energy. I don't know who told you this. Can you point to any large city that is running on purely wind & solar right now? As far as I'm aware, there's not even a large regional city that has demonstrated this can work with current battery technology. I would be really happy to be wrong on this, but as of right now, it's not an option and we need to be realistic about th…

> Can you point to any large city that is running on purely wind & solar right now? That wasn’t their claim at all, so it seems questionable to demand they prove this. It’s like if someone said “cheerios are good for the heart”, and you asked someone to demonstrate that nobody ever had a heart attack while eating cheerios. You’re challenging an exaggerated version of the claim that was made, not the actual claim.

> That wasn’t their claim at all, so it seems questionable to demand they prove this.

That is a fair criticism.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#506

Post by plantain »

speakfreely wrote: post #426
tcfhgj wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can be stepped up fast is wind and solar energy. And a heat pump is superior to gas even if the grid consists 100% out of gas. Further, you don't build a building built for gas when have to switch to electricity in the future anyway when the grid is even cleaner.

> What can be stepped up fast is wind and solar energy. I don't know who told you this. Can you point to any large city that is running on purely wind & solar right now? As far as I'm aware, there's not even a large regional city that has demonstrated this can work with current battery technology. I would be really happy to be wrong on this, but as of right now, it's not an option and we need to be realistic about th…

Purely on wind & solar? Probably only islands.

But major cities are getting close.

Adelaide, Australia went from 100% carbon energy in 2007 to ~30% today, and looks to hit at a net 0% by 2028.

https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=all&interval=1M

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#507

Post by heatmiser »

annexrichmond wrote: post #376
CydeWeys wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in NYC rent, and there are many other considerations to make when picking an apartment to move into besides what kind of stove it has. You're often taking what you can get. This law will mean that, going forward, there will be more apartments available that don't have air-quality-destroying gas stoves, meaning there'll be more suitable places for people to pick from. Also, as the other commenter said, the…

Surely there are other ways to incentivize non gas stoves than outright banning it in all new buildings.

To what end?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#508

Post by tcfhgj »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #468
tcfhgj wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single thing is a drop in a bucket. Still the drops make a full bucket in the end

Why do we frequently go after the drops that cause a lot of headache and inconvenience, then?

Because we have to go after all drops

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#509

Post by topaz0 »

whiddershins wrote: post #406
topaz0 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you try to do exactly what you were doing on the gas stove in the same way, you will have a bad time, but my and many other people's experience is that a decent electric stove is perfectly capable of making good food once you figure out how to use it. Electric stoves in general can heat faster than gas, and in my experience heat more evenly (no hot spots), so you don't need the crutch of a copper bottom to conduct…

It’s not propaganda. I’ve cooked on all sorts of stoves. Electric is way worse than gas. It’s not even up for reasonable debate.

Here's some reading about how much propaganda there has been for gas in the last century or so: https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-foss...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#510

Post by freeflight »

realusername wrote: post #248
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is an all-electric infrastructure “less fragile”? I don’t see any advantage for the end user. The only thing that works during a power outage is the gas stove. Regarding power generation, gas is cheap and plentiful and gas power plants are much easier to build than nuclear. Nuclear takes years to get regulatory approval. Anyway, no one’s building nuclear. Germany closed down their last three nuclear plants, for s…

You forgot one small thing, there's two orders of magnitude more emissions with gas plants which makes this technology unsuitable for any future development, it's basically legacy, regardless of what you think of nuclear.

Afaik on an international level there's been a somewhat universal consent that natural gas is the "transition fossil fuel of choice" [0], due to being the fossil fuel with the lowest emissions.

It also has the added bonus that gas infrastructure can realistically be retooled for green hydrogen, and related products.

[0] https://www.iea.org/reports/the-role-of-gas-in-todays-energy...

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