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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#371

Post by ajsnigrutin »

Zak wrote: post #317
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

A surprising number of gas stoves do not work without electrical power. It's supposedly for safety reasons because a user might leave the gas on after the electronic igniter fails to fire. Of course, it's possible for a sufficiently incompetent user to turn the knob past the light position and achieve the same result when it does have electrical power, so this feature strikes me as nonsensical. I had an annoying expe…

Why is that a feature? ...interesting :) Our stoves here usually have some heat-based protection, where you have to hold the knob pressed in until a tiny rod heats up (usually 2, 3 seconds) and after that you can release it and the gas will stay on. Without power, you just need a ligher (or anything releasing a spark) to ignite the gas. Also, the default configuration for gas stoves is 3x gas cooktop + 1x electric, so most people are covered in both cases.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#372

Post by annexrichmond »

unethical_ban wrote: post #104
rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

The ... ahem, administrators of Fox News and the Conservative media bubble told their flock that 87,000 IRS federal agents were being hired to come to everyone's houses (Conservatives first though) to remove all AR-15s and gas appliances as soon as possible, probably after Kamala Harris orchestrates Biden's removal from office via the 25th amendment so she, famous trans progressive, can implement the true LiberalTM a…

> Conservative media bubble told their flock that 87,000 IRS federal agents were being hired to come to everyone's houses

Did they actually say that, cause that sounds pretty hyperbolic to what their narrative actually was, which is that 87k agents were being hired which would effectively be targeting middle class and small businesses, instead of big corps.

I have friends who were were wrongfully audited, and it’s a huge costly, stressful burden.

I don’t think it’s wrong to question how the IRS is managing its budget.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#373

Post by newZWhoDis »

dadjoker wrote: post #190
philip1209 wrote: post #174

Electricity is a universal protocol - you can generate it with multiple different energy sources, ranging from gas to nuclear. I think this change future-proofs constructions, and makes our infrastructure less fragile.

As California has shown multiple times, dependence on electricity alone can be disastrous.

Just because California sucks at something doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea.

Just like with Texas and wind turbines that lacked basic winterization, implementation details matter.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#374

Post by nonethewiser »

CardenB wrote: post #117
rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

There’s a difference between “no new construction with gas stoves” and “seizing all gas stoves” lol

Read the article. They arent just “debunking” the seizing.

How can people arguing for the merits of banning gas and also pretend they don’t want the government to do it?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#375

Post by greedo »

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

For the same reason that they can say not to use lead paint, or asbestos siding...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#376

Post by annexrichmond »

CydeWeys wrote: post #358
annexrichmond wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

Most people in NYC rent, and there are many other considerations to make when picking an apartment to move into besides what kind of stove it has. You're often taking what you can get. This law will mean that, going forward, there will be more apartments available that don't have air-quality-destroying gas stoves, meaning there'll be more suitable places for people to pick from. Also, as the other commenter said, the…

Surely there are other ways to incentivize non gas stoves than outright banning it in all new buildings.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#377

Post by amalcon »

jablongo wrote: post #202
lumb63 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

> Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. Not true, heat pumps are widely used as primary heat sources in environments as cold or colder than NY, like in Montreal and other parts of Canada. The take that heat pump tech only works in very moderate temperatures is stale at this point.

Usually that works one of two ways:

1. Ground source heat pump -- which can work pretty much anywhere people live, but costs a lot more and people don't necessarily know about them.

2. Failover to resistive heating when it gets too cold outside. It's fine to do this in Montreal, because electricity is relatively inexpensive there. It's fine to do this in New York City, or even somewhere a little cooler like Boston, because you're doing it for max like 2 days a year even in an outlier year. Not sure if it's fine to do this in Buffalo.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#378

Post by UncleMeat »

nucleardog wrote: post #155
jillesvangurp wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Relative to resistive heating which is of course 100% efficient. Gas is about close to 100% (you loose some via exhaust). Ground source heat pumps work pretty much anywhere. Air source heat pumps can be more challenging but can also work at more extreme temperatures. They don't stop working but their efficiency drops a bit. And of course resistive heating doesn't stop working.…

> And of course resistive heating doesn't stop working. Well except… > Of course relative to NY, they do have a more reliable power grid Okay, yeah. That would pretty much be my concern. Having been without power for over two weeks in the past 12 months the propane tanks and propane stove / furnace / water heater have been a lifesaver. Powering the control boards / fans with a generator (or even UPS in a pinch) is a…

Gas furnaces don't work without power by default. The fan that pushes the hot air through your house won't work. Many gas furnaces have electrically powered safety features that won't allow the furnace to function if the power is out.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#379

Post by [deleted] »

andbberger wrote: post #199
WheatMillington wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live in New Zealand, I haven't experienced a power cut in years, and in my entire life I've only ever experienced a handful of short power cuts. So when I hear about the California experience, it feels pretty third world to me.

blackouts are once yearly occurrences, almost always caused by natural disasters. roads are high quality and abundant. we have some of highest quality tap water in the world, which meets drinking standards even before being treated. three airports. seven major bridges. way too many highways. three world class universities. and despite what you might hear, san francisco remains one of the safest cities in the country.…

[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#380

Post by blkhawk »

catiopatio wrote: post #335
LazyMans wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not too cold in New York for heat pumps. With 20 year old technology yes, it would have required supplemental heat. Not anymore though, not until you get down around -25/-30f, at that point a resistive heater kicks in to assist.

What happens, exactly, when everyone’s resistive heater kicks in, the grid is overloaded, and we wind up with rolling blackouts in -30 weather?

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