New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#461

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:29 PM UTC

ahoy wrote: post #445

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#462

Post by stefan_ » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:29 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #285

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

This might be the problem with this discussion on HN, there are people here who earnestly believe we will need batteries in them to power simple electric induction cooktops.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#463

Post by engineer_22 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:30 PM UTC

ahoy wrote: post #445

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

[flagged]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#464

Post by cogman10 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:31 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #424

cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

How many homes have burned down because of faulty wiring for electric stoves vs the number that have exploded due to leaking gas stoves?

286 from gas appliances [1]

24,000 for all electrical fires. [2]

I wasn't able to find specifically fires caused by electric stoves. Most are caused by faulty wiring, lights, and space heaters.

My assumption, stoves are not often involved in electric fires. They have isolated, grounded circuits that you aren't frequently plugging and unplugging into. The thinker cables usually have thicker insulation on top of that.

[1] https://www.millerweisbrod.com/preventing-gas-explosions#:~:....

[2] https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/firefightingtools/...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#465

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:31 PM UTC

jnwatson wrote: post #411

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I don’t buy the climate argument. However, banning gas appliances comes from the same place as banning lead paint. Gas appliances are a major source of indoor pollution. Gas heating leaks pollution inside the home, especially as furnaces age. Plus, many residents don’t own their own property. This helps protect renters.

[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#466

Post by AbrahamParangi » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:31 PM UTC

MagicMoonlight wrote: post #382

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

1. Because destroying the planet affects everyone and injuring yourself costs everyone else in state spending. We also don’t allow asbestos or releasing poison gas in your garden. 2. Would you consider spreading awareness a suitable solution to knife crime? No? I wonder why.

1. Do you believe in banning other bad things people do to themselves like smoking or eating too much? Obesity is by far the largest public health problem in the United States.

2. There is a relevant difference between doing something bad for you (like smoking - legal but the government tries hard to let you know it's bad) and murdering others with a knife.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#467

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:32 PM UTC

operatingthetan wrote: post #392

nonethewiser wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see him overstating anything. He didn’t say everyone experienced it.

>He didn’t say everyone experienced it. They clearly over-generalized. I didn't say they "overstated." They didn't say "in some parts of Seattle" they said "in Seattle." I'm sure there have been edge cases in every state of the country where the power has been 10 days at someone's house because of unique circumstances. That doesn't meaningfully change the risk profile of a heat pump over gas furnaces.

It wasn't a unique case. It happens about once every 20 years. The time before the 10 day event it was 4 days. I live in the middle of the Seattle metropolitan area, not out in the country. The powerlines were down for miles around. The powerlines thread through the trees, and the trees fall on them during a windstorm.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#468

Post by pclmulqdq » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:32 PM UTC

tcfhgj wrote: post #420

ilikehurdles wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest effect would be the negative one from manufacturing and replacing all those stoves. Gas stoves are a molecule in a drop in a bucket of climate change.

Every single thing is a drop in a bucket. Still the drops make a full bucket in the end

Why do we frequently go after the drops that cause a lot of headache and inconvenience, then?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#469

Post by bhickey » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:32 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #439

greedo wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that they can say not to use lead paint, or asbestos siding...

Basic chemistry, burning methane cleanly produces water and CO2. Neither is anywhere near as dangerous as lead or asbestos.

The real world isn't basic chemistry and we shouldn't flippantly pretend it is. Stove gas also contains nitrogen dioxide, carbon monoxide and formaldehyde. In a study of (approximately) all children in asthma, researchers found that stove gas explains 14% of all asthma cases.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#470

Post by pipodeclown » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:32 PM UTC

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

You gotta start somewhere mate, might as well start with a rule that says, if you're gonna build something new and put a new stove in, might as well make sure it's electric. Really don't see you're point here. So because the impact of a single measure is not that big it means we shouldn't do it? You could apply that reasoning that a shit load of individual measures, what you fail to point out is that all those individual measures add up to a Significant reduction, even if any single one doesn't by itself.