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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#441

Post by bentlegen »

speakfreely wrote: post #410
seanalltogether wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when you dig into the details, it seems like the change may not have much effect on climate change at all. Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change?

Did you know that almost 40% of NYC's electricity grid is powered by natural gas? Another 30% from nuclear and ~20% from hydroelectric. Since nuclear and hydroelectric can't be immediately stepped up, what do you think is going to be increased to generate power for all these new electrical appliances that will be drawing power from the grid? The heat transfer and energy loss of electrical appliances generally makes t…

So because nuclear or other solutions can’t “immediately” be stepped up (debatable, but it doesn’t matter), we should not bother to create the circumstances in which they would become beneficial?

This go-nowhere attitude and is why people can’t take fossil fuel apologists seriously.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#442

Post by tcfhgj »

speakfreely wrote: post #426
tcfhgj wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can be stepped up fast is wind and solar energy. And a heat pump is superior to gas even if the grid consists 100% out of gas. Further, you don't build a building built for gas when have to switch to electricity in the future anyway when the grid is even cleaner.

> What can be stepped up fast is wind and solar energy. I don't know who told you this. Can you point to any large city that is running on purely wind & solar right now? As far as I'm aware, there's not even a large regional city that has demonstrated this can work with current battery technology. I would be really happy to be wrong on this, but as of right now, it's not an option and we need to be realistic about th…

You don't need to run 100% on solar and PV to cut emissions significantly using it

Regarding seasons: in our country wind is strong when solar is weak and vice versa

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#443

Post by speakfreely »

bentlegen wrote: post #441
speakfreely wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that almost 40% of NYC's electricity grid is powered by natural gas? Another 30% from nuclear and ~20% from hydroelectric. Since nuclear and hydroelectric can't be immediately stepped up, what do you think is going to be increased to generate power for all these new electrical appliances that will be drawing power from the grid? The heat transfer and energy loss of electrical appliances generally makes t…

So because nuclear or other solutions can’t “immediately” be stepped up (debatable, but it doesn’t matter), we should not bother to create the circumstances in which they would become beneficial? This go-nowhere attitude and is why people can’t take fossil fuel apologists seriously.

You mis-characterized me. I actually identify as a nuclear energy apologist. Nothing would make me more happy than to see nuclear energy sources being fast tracked.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#444

Post by rlg2161 »

iamdamian wrote: post #396
seanalltogether wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when you dig into the details, it seems like the change may not have much effect on climate change at all. Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change?

> Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change? Yes. (Also, I welcome strong evidence to the contrary.)

For the average American, 4 devices in their home - water heaters, furnaces, stoves and gas powered clothes driers - account 95% of residential emissions [1]. Residential energy use accounts for ~20% of US annual carbon emissions [2].

The 2nd figure accounts for carbon footprint of electricity generation used in the home as well as gas combusted in the home. The 4th chart from [1] suggests this is about a 50/50 split (if we bring grid emissions to 0 but don’t exchange these natural gas devices, carbon intensity remains at half of what it is today). Therefore, we can conclude that these 4 appliances in residential properties account for 10% of US carbon footprint.

You could potentially make an argument that stoves are not the lions share of those emissions - but even if they only represent 10% of residential building emissions, that’s still 1% of US carbon emissions annually (which is a huge number when expressed in tons of CO2)

[1] https://www.rewiringamerica.org/policy/bringing-infrastructu... - Chart 4 [2] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1922205117

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#445

Post by ahoy »

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood.

The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talking about at at all? Because the government has never been my problem. It's always a person a few rungs on the economic ladder above me. A boss, a landlord, making my life just a little worse in order to make theirs a little wealthier.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#446

Post by unethical_ban »

annexrichmond wrote: post #372
unethical_ban wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ... ahem, administrators of Fox News and the Conservative media bubble told their flock that 87,000 IRS federal agents were being hired to come to everyone's houses (Conservatives first though) to remove all AR-15s and gas appliances as soon as possible, probably after Kamala Harris orchestrates Biden's removal from office via the 25th amendment so she, famous trans progressive, can implement the true LiberalTM a…

> Conservative media bubble told their flock that 87,000 IRS federal agents were being hired to come to everyone's houses Did they actually say that, cause that sounds pretty hyperbolic to what their narrative actually was, which is that 87k agents were being hired which would effectively be targeting middle class and small businesses, instead of big corps. I have friends who were were wrongfully audited, and it’s a…

I was being hyperbolic. I didn't pay attention to the 87k news, since Fox News and Ted Cruz talked about it I assumed it was meaningless distraction.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#447

Post by azemetre »

iamdamian wrote: post #436
jnwatson wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy the climate argument. However, banning gas appliances comes from the same place as banning lead paint. Gas appliances are a major source of indoor pollution. Gas heating leaks pollution inside the home, especially as furnaces age. Plus, many residents don’t own their own property. This helps protect renters.

Yes, but this regulation targets everyone in the state of New York, not just renters, and the research I've read seems to indicate that fume hoods protect against this indoor pollution.

I have never seen an actual fume hood in any residential home in my life (close to 800 homes across the South and New England. I have seen plenty of faux hoods that do absolutely nothing.

Maybe it's something they only add in luxury homes.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#450

Post by topaz0 »

nonethewiser wrote: post #384
topaz0 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many ways that outrage can be fake, and a variety of them apply to this situation. For one thing the conservative talking points were all about a sense that the feds were coming for your freedom, and not in any way about the merits or otherwise of being able to burn gas in the place you live. For another, this was being talked about as something that would impose a heavy burden on normal people, which is si…

> For one thing the conservative talking points were all about a sense that the feds were coming for your freedom, and not in any way about the merits or otherwise of being able to burn gas in the place you live. Well if the federal government’s opinion on gas is operative, and not your own, how is that not coming for your freedom? You may think they have good cause, but that doesn’t change the nature of a law that b…

I want the government to always be balancing the good of society against my individual freedom. These people are saying "this limits my freedom" and ignoring the societal benefits. That's disingenuous. And you can tell it's disingenuous because the next thing they say is "we need government to ban books about gay people", or "we need government to ban abortion". I'm not saying your freedom shouldn't be a consideration, I'm saying it should be one consideration that is balanced against others.
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