New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#361

Post by nonethewiser » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:29 PM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #32

john_shafthair wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.

If you take the investment that is the infrastructure for gas lines (all underground) and do similar for most electricity then storms don't take out electricity and people don't die. Best of all, the total investment and maintenance actually decreases.

But gas lines are already down. If it were as easy as you said then NY would already have no grid problems.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#362

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:29 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #316

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total effect on health seems rather debatable, and even if so there are better solutions (e.g. minimum ventilation requirements) for that. Total bans on products people use and can enjoy responsibility due to potential health risks is nearly always a bad idea in my opinion. Just look at smoking in the US, for example, which recently hit an all time low. We could have gone the prohibition route (and we can guess h…

As far as I know, the lower levels of smoking have not made the US health outcomes any better than places where smoking is at ridiculously high levels, like France.

The health outcomes for illnesses related to smoking are for sure better in the US.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#363

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

andbberger wrote: post #89

hedora wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

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[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#364

Post by dirck » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #195

topaz0 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of the reason for banning gas is not energy but indoor pollution. There's pretty strong and growing evidence that cooking with gas leads to substantial health risks because of various combustion products that end up in your air (especially if not properly vented).

The total effect on health seems rather debatable, and even if so there are better solutions (e.g. minimum ventilation requirements) for that. Total bans on products people use and can enjoy responsibility due to potential health risks is nearly always a bad idea in my opinion. Just look at smoking in the US, for example, which recently hit an all time low. We could have gone the prohibition route (and we can guess h…

Smoking remains the leading cause of preventable disease, disability, and death in the United States.

• 40% of cancer deaths are related to smoking • 80% of lung cancer deaths are related to smoking • 33% of heart disease deaths are related to smoking

There's over half a million deaths a year from smoking and 10% are second hand smoking related.

I’m not quite sure we can call this a win yet.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#365

Post by iamdamian » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why.

This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.)

But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all.

When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an entirely different argument, this time about personal health. I don't think the personal health justification stands up to scrutiny, for two reasons:

1. If you buy a home and want it to have a gas stove, why is it the state government's place to say that you can't do so, for your own health?

2. According to research I've seen, vented fume hoods seem to mitigate any health effects; if that's true and a state government really wants to intervene, why not spread awareness or perhaps mandate that newly constructed buildings with gas lines also have venting for fume hoods? (Incidentally, requiring venting for fume hoods would be a nice baseline for New York.)

I haven't seen any well-reasoned debate on this topic, possibly because the rationale for the regulation is, in fact, incoherent.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#366

Post by hdisjdudh » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:31 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #316

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total effect on health seems rather debatable, and even if so there are better solutions (e.g. minimum ventilation requirements) for that. Total bans on products people use and can enjoy responsibility due to potential health risks is nearly always a bad idea in my opinion. Just look at smoking in the US, for example, which recently hit an all time low. We could have gone the prohibition route (and we can guess h…

As far as I know, the lower levels of smoking have not made the US health outcomes any better than places where smoking is at ridiculously high levels, like France.

because the usa never stopped smoking.

numbers are higher now. but nobody was counting e-cig before. some were even getting money to buy them as they were spined as a quiting smoke path.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#367

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:31 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #251

tomp wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a doctor? This one doctor (whom I probably trust the most of online doctors) disagrees. https://peterattiamd.com/putting-out-the-fire-on-the-gas-sto... > For example, the analysis included multiple studies that found an association between gas cooking and respiratory disease in children but variously failed to evaluate parental smoking habits, indoor smoke, pet ownership, or outdoor pollution as other possibl…

Indoor pollution from a gas stove has more to do with how the building was built. Older construction leaks a lot more air than newer construction, primarily due to changes in code. More specifically, the air in an older home, from the 1980s, might change over every four hours or so. In a newer home built to modern building codes, it's eight or ten hours.

Hours is still an awfully long time to have dangerous chemicals floating around in your air after each time you cook a meal.

My apartment has a gas stove, which I was was induction. The gas stove plus the lack of a hood that vents to the outside means the indoor air quality gets pretty messed up. I usually have to open some windows when cooking, which is not great in winter.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#368

Post by idontpost » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:31 PM UTC

philip1209 wrote: post #174

Electricity is a universal protocol - you can generate it with multiple different energy sources, ranging from gas to nuclear. I think this change future-proofs constructions, and makes our infrastructure less fragile.

[dead]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#369

Post by nonethewiser » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:31 PM UTC

operatingthetan wrote: post #293

WalterBright wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been out for 10 days at a time in Seattle.

Not for me it hasn't, you seem to be describing a very specific edge case, which doesn't seem that honest of an example.

I don’t see him overstating anything. He didn’t say everyone experienced it.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#370

Post by arijun » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:32 PM UTC

annexrichmond wrote: post #330

cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

Do you have the same opinion on fire escapes? After all, it should be my choice to endanger myself so I can pay a little less in rent.