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On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

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Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#271

Post by netsharc »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #28
MandieD wrote: post #11

Observation of Berlin from the weekend I spent there last month: literally the only place I was better off speaking German rather than English was a Turkish cafe. Everywhere else? Too many people understood English far better than they did German, especially anywhere to do with tech. Some of the tech people I talked to were running into being otherwise eligible for a permanent residence permit, but not being able to…

One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have…

In any case, if you're a EUian, you can live and work in Germany (or any other EU country) just like a native of the country (some restrictions may apply/may have applied, e.g. with the UK (when it was part of the EU) restricting the number of Romanians and other "freshly joined the EU" citizens who could live there). There's even no need to have a high-paying contract like software dev or brain surgeon, you can be a dishwasher.

Maybe it's not just EU, but EFTA as well, I was in Iceland and there were a lot of Eastern Europeans working in the retail stores.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#272

Post by treis »

wink wrote: post #231
ricardobayes wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B1 is actually pretty strict, Spain only requires an A2 even for citizenship (after ten years of being a resident). In a parallel universe, imagine needing to learn B1 Turkish as a German to become a turkish resident. Pretty daunting.

The funny thing about that is most people who never did a real language test have no idea what these categories even mean. I only learned languages in high school and I never moved to another country. A coworker of mine once tried to explain it to me, but his German and English was pretty much flawless so that didn't help telling me where he (may have) struggled in the past.

For anyone else curious:

B1

Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc.

Can deal with most situations likely to arise whilst travelling in an area where the language is spoken.

Can produce simple connected text on topics which are familiar or of personal interest.

Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes & ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans.

A2:

Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family information, shopping, local geography, employment).

Can communicate in simple and routine tasks requiring a simple and direct exchange of information on familiar and routine matters.

Can describe in simple terms aspects of his/her background, immediate environment and matters in areas of immediate need.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#273

Post by EdSchouten »

ElevenLathe wrote: post #269

It's not just German. Language groups around the world are struggling to fit English vocabularly into their language. My favorite English borrowing into Polish is probably kolesław (pronounced something like COAL-eh-suave) for coleslaw, but there are so many that it's hard to choose. Poles in Chicago decline "Milwaukee" (the street) as if it were a Polish plural ("na Milwaukach"). I'm fairly OK in Polish but still fi…

Which is funny, because coleslaw itself is borrowed from Dutch (koolsla).

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#274

Post by netsharc »

AdamN wrote: post #172
snassar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you have this information from? The State of Berlin says otherwise https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/121864/en/ : ------ Sufficient knowledge of German You must have an adequate command of the German language (level B 1 of the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages). If you were in possession of either a residence permit or a residence authorisation on 31/12/2004, you only have to demons…

That's for non-EU citizens. There are 360MM non-German EU citizens - some of which are living in Berlin visa-free.

Some? Wouldn't they all be visa free?

Yeah, that page is for non-EU-ians, because if you're from the EU, due to freedom of movement, you can live and work in any other EU country, and you don't even need to apply for a "permanent resident permit".

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#275

Post by tuatoru »

treis wrote: post #270
systemtest wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.

Its both: Leave Country A for Country B = expat Move to Country B from Country A = immigrant The words mean exactly the same. It's just which perspective you want to highlight. Whether you left a place or moved to a place.

If you have brown skin, you're an economic migrant.

If you have pink skin, you're an ex-pat.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#276

Post by droopyEyelids »

I wonder why the author couldn't have used Fußgänger with enough English context to explain the word, feels like the kind of thing I'd appreciate were I an expat reading the English language paper- "The Fußgänger commuting on foot, to work or shop or visit friends" something like that.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#277

Post by akie »

seqizz wrote: post #102
TomK32 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be stubborn and stick to your German even if it is bad, a bilingual conversation is just as fun. It took me as a German a long time to not automatically switch to English when I talk with someone who has little German knowledge.

As someone who still can't speak "good enough" after 6 years in Germany, thank you! Everyone switches to English all the time :)

Gern geschehen!

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#278

Post by Xixi »

treis wrote: post #270
systemtest wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.

Its both: Leave Country A for Country B = expat Move to Country B from Country A = immigrant The words mean exactly the same. It's just which perspective you want to highlight. Whether you left a place or moved to a place.

I might have been traumatized by US visa process, but in my mind "immigrant" has a very specific meaning: moving to a country with the intent of settling there permanently. And the US is very strict on that meaning: when I went to the US my work visa was explicitly non-immigrant, and calling myself an immigrant at the US embassy when applying for the visa, or while crossing the US border would have resulted in the denial of my visa, or the denial of my entry in the US. At least that's what the attorney drilled into my head...

Expat literally means "living outside of your homeland". So by definition an immigrant is an expat, but an expat is not necessarily an immigrant. Sometimes expat is used in a stricter sense (also called "true expat") to refer to people sent abroad by their employer on usually very very favorable packages (the "expat packages"): everything paid (rent in prime neighborhoods, private schools for kids, plane tickets to visit home, etc.), on top of an indemnity for living abroad, on top of the regular salary paid home.

In my case I was an expat in the United States (only went there to work, no intention to stay), but then I immigrated to Japan (now a permanent resident, no intention to leave). It would have been wrong to call me an immigrant in the US, but I am both an expat and an immigrant in Japan.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#279

Post by gumby »

tuatoru wrote: post #275
treis wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its both: Leave Country A for Country B = expat Move to Country B from Country A = immigrant The words mean exactly the same. It's just which perspective you want to highlight. Whether you left a place or moved to a place.

If you have brown skin, you're an economic migrant. If you have pink skin, you're an ex-pat.

I have a parent from each of those categories and can confirm from this natural A/B test that that’s how they are treated.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#280

Post by dfawcus »

netsharc wrote: post #271
jillesvangurp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have…

In any case, if you're a EUian, you can live and work in Germany (or any other EU country) just like a native of the country (some restrictions may apply/may have applied, e.g. with the UK (when it was part of the EU) restricting the number of Romanians and other "freshly joined the EU" citizens who could live there). There's even no need to have a high-paying contract like software dev or brain surgeon, you can be a…

There are a number of overlapping things.

Within the EU, the "four freedoms" apply, of which on "freedom of movement" is the thing mainly at play.

The EFTA states have a similar distinct thing between them.

How all EFTA states (bar Switzerland - i.e. Iceland, Norway, Lichtenstein) are also in the EEA Agreement, and the EU "four freedoms" also apply there.

Switzerland has a raft of linked treaties with the EU, which sort of replicate the EEA agreement, and includes the "four freedoms".

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