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Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

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Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#491

Post by DanielHB »

klodolph wrote: post #317
amluto wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to credit this type of feature creep for some of the problem, but only some. Decades ago, we had hardware that was so much less capable than anything anyone has put in a car in ten years that the comparison is absurd. Nonetheless, those old systems were often very capable of doing useful things, and the UIs were often very, very fast by modern standards. And a lot of this was that the software stack was t…

The kind of development you’re describing happens in aerospace. I know some people who work in aerospace. They’re not any smarter than the people who work in automotive, but the people in aerospace have a much higher tolerance for dealing with bureaucracy, and management is much happier to get something less impressive but reliable.

automative main problem is the constant push to cut costs which leads to worse SoC being shipped. Aerospace profit margins are much higher (or don't matter for gov programs) so they don't need to cut costs that much on computer hardware

> management is much happier to get something less impressive but reliable.

^ this is accurate though. Management wants bells and whistles (animations) which are hard to build without abstraction layers

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#492

Post by bjarneh »

duckmysick wrote: post #457
bjarneh wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - the controls on my stove top How were these stove-top touch-buttons ever considered an upgrade to their predecessor? They always have no feedback, or that annoyingly high "beep" feedback. They are always slow to respond. They typically use only two or three buttons to control the actual temperature, forcing you to select location first, which is typically slow and terrible as well. Nobody in their right mind can…

Is that induction? The product page says "Elektrisk platetopp" and not "Induksjonstopper". I'm looking for an induction top or an oven combo with knobs and it's difficult.

> Is that induction? The product page says "Elektrisk platetopp" and not "Induksjonstopper".

No, it's not induction. The BOSCH stoves with induction all have that nutty touch interface :/

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#493

Post by tirpen »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #268
mtrpcic wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit of buttons isn't in the response time, it's in the tactile feedback that makes it so you don't need 16ms response time. I heard it click, I felt it click, it clicked. If the thing I wanted to happen doesn't, it's because it's broken and not because I can't tell if I clicked the right spot on my iPad. Not having to take your eyes off the road in these cases is the benefit of buttons, and no improvement to…

A lot the knobs and buttons these days are digital anyways. So there is no real tactile feedback, since they are just activating some digital function anyways.

The knob still exists as a physical thing between in your fingers. You can feel it turn, you feel how much you've turned it, you feel the little clicks if it has those, you feel if you turn it into an extreme position.

That's what tactile feedback is. It doesn't matter if the knob is connected to a digital or analog circuit. It has tactile feedback either way.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#494

Post by fps_doug »

zamnos wrote: post #458
tasuki wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits. What aspects of the hardware would lead to 500ms response times?

Underpowered CPU being asked to do way more work than it properly has capacity for.

Plus 400 layers of abstraction because the lowest bidder doesn't know any actual software engineering and every time they face a problem they add yet another library to the project that someone on SO mentions because the accompanying sample code in the answer has the least amount of lines.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#495

Post by bjarneh »

tom_ wrote: post #459
bjarneh wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - the controls on my stove top How were these stove-top touch-buttons ever considered an upgrade to their predecessor? They always have no feedback, or that annoyingly high "beep" feedback. They are always slow to respond. They typically use only two or three buttons to control the actual temperature, forcing you to select location first, which is typically slow and terrible as well. Nobody in their right mind can…

I've used some kitchen equipment (fortunately, not ovens...) that think the buttons are pressed if you spill liquid on them. You have to stop and clean the thing before you can continue.

> that think the buttons are pressed if you spill liquid on them.

Seems like a pretty big problem if that's the case for any of those touch controls on a stove; perhaps they're even worse than I thought :-)

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#496

Post by barrkel »

DanielHB wrote: post #486
amluto wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to credit this type of feature creep for some of the problem, but only some. Decades ago, we had hardware that was so much less capable than anything anyone has put in a car in ten years that the comparison is absurd. Nonetheless, those old systems were often very capable of doing useful things, and the UIs were often very, very fast by modern standards. And a lot of this was that the software stack was t…

if you make the UI software more performant the sourcing team just picks a cheaper SoC in order to cut costs. There is little incentive to bend your ass backwards to make performant software when cutting SoC costs doesn't come up on your team's KPIs for upper management

I guess that's why you only remove the delay loop just before shipping.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#497

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

bradgessler wrote: post #413
jjav wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. No, that's wrong. Problem with touchscreens is that (1) you need to look at them and (2) there is no tactile feedback of whether you pressed it or not and (3) you need to hover your arm in a moving car at just the right spot. Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. If the ac…

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems > Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and pre…

> I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it.

Are there no buttons on your car's steering wheel? Really, not even a horn? These can be pressed without even taking your hand off the wheel.

And what about indicators, gear shifter, lights, parking brake? Do you "briefly have to look at the console" to find those?

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#498

Post by gumballindie »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms

Oh my sweet summer child. If only it was the developer's fault and not their managers pushing ridiculous deadlines.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#499

Post by nvilcins »

checkyoursudo wrote: post #393

With. A. Passion. Other touch screens (or similar things) I dislike: - the controls on my stove top - the controls on my monitor - the controls on my tv - the controls on my thermostat - probably more All of these should have physical buttons for the limited number of functions required. Or, at a minimum, for navigation and confirmation. Touch screens there suck. My wife's car has a touch screen on the control/infota…

The elevator in our apartment building has a touch-button(?) panel.

Guess what happens during the cold season when you you've got your gloves on? Yep, absolutely nothing! (bonus f.u. points if you are carrying stuff and cannot easily take the gloves off)

Luckily have a fully analogue car so I'm maintaining my sanity somewhat.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#500

Post by kmarc »

A bit off topic but I enjoyed reading the conversation here from people with different perception / opinion about touch vs button.

I'm more on the button side of the argument, but that's not the point.

I rather wonder how many years from now would I think back of these arguments as some "could have happened in the past but now it's absolutely irrelevant", as autonomous cars* would take over, and human-driven ones would be lawfully banned on 99% of the roads*, as horse carriages are banned today compared to 100 years ago.

* or their future equivalents

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