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Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

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Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it this one perhaps? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7261003

Thank you. That seems to be it. I don't think it's perfect, but it seems like a hell of a good improvement on the touch interfaces car companies try and come up with today that takes into account that a driver wants to use muscle memory and not stare at the screen.

Funny story, that demo only exists because the designer was mis-categorized as a software engineer after an acquisition by Apple. After nearly getting the person in question fired it ultimately resulted in a successful job category change for them.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#252

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…

I'm willing to credit this type of feature creep for some of the problem, but only some.

Decades ago, we had hardware that was so much less capable than anything anyone has put in a car in ten years that the comparison is absurd. Nonetheless, those old systems were often very capable of doing useful things, and the UIs were often very, very fast by modern standards. And a lot of this was that the software stack was tuned for performance and latency and did not do things that hurt latency too much, and this came at a substantial modularity cost.

Back when a TI calculator with a whole OS running on a Z80 was an order of magnitude or so faster than your average new car, it didn't have a compositor (which still eats a good frame or so of latency, maybe more, and, as an industry we still don't know how to solve this). It ran an OS that was surely far harder to tweak than a modern car stack, but it had fewer layers and could be kept performant. An Apple ][ and its clones were, of course, much faster than a TI calculator, and we still can't match that level of performance.

A group of engineers that were willing to keep the managers away and make a simple, limited-purpose system, could surely get excellent performance out of any currently available car computer hardware, but it would come at a cost. Buzzwords would not happen :) Also, the software developers had access to full data sheets for the hardware, and when you told the hardware to put something in its framebuffer, it was there, and no blobs or firmware were in the middle.

I still remember when Windows 2000 launched with "layered windows": an application could opt in to being composited, and it would gain the ability to be translucent, but it came at a very obvious performance cost. Sadly, 23 years later, that performance cost is still there, but it's not opt-in any more.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#253

I'm surprised the article didn't mention one of the key regulations that led to this as an unintended consequence: By law, cars in the US must now have a back-up camera. That means every car must have a screen. Given that, automakers figured they may as well use the damn thing for everything else too and cut costs. It wasn't just that they wanted to take away tactile controls to save money. It was that they had to ma…

Did back up cameras save that many lives?

No, but it's still the law. By 2054 (31 years from now), the NHSTA's estimates say it will save less than 2000 lives. https://www.extremetech.com/cars/179635-car-backup-cameras-a...

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#254

I'm surprised the article didn't mention one of the key regulations that led to this as an unintended consequence: By law, cars in the US must now have a back-up camera. That means every car must have a screen. Given that, automakers figured they may as well use the damn thing for everything else too and cut costs. It wasn't just that they wanted to take away tactile controls to save money. It was that they had to ma…

Did back up cameras save that many lives?

I assume somebody's kid got ran over by a parent backing up into them and they then channeled their guilt and grief into lobbying for such a law.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#255
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any controls you can't access while it's rebooting? Hypothetically if it didn't come back up, what features would be inaccessible?

A long list of non essential features. But pedals and steering and doors and windows still work fine in your scenario (which btw I’ve never heard of happening but of course it’s maybe possible). Not sure about wipers, haven’t tried the wiper button while rebooting, hmm now I’m really curious…

Back when I owned a Tesla, I had the infotainment system crash at least once. Luckily I was on a neighborhood road, so I could just go slow in lieu of the speedometer.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…

Dude Winamp was a clean, simple and wickedly responsive UI that allowed a multitude of real-time audio tweaks and supported playlists with thousands of files. This was in the late 90’s running on 166Mhz processors with maybe 16MB of system ram. Are you saying modern car infotainment systems have fewer resources allocated to the UI?

Are you saying that you want to control a car’s infotainment system with a keyboard and mouse while staring at a CRT monitor?

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't how tactile buttons in modern cars work. You're doing the same thing as pushing keys on a keyboard. The software can still be slow. Turn the physical volume dial on a car with a slow Apple CarPlay interface and tell me how that works out for you. Oh, it's too loud? But it takes 2 seconds for the software to respond due to lag and now you're fiddling with the volume button trying to not make it worse? A phy…

You turn the physical dial, and regardless of the outcome, you know that your input was received by the HCI, so you don't need to wonder if you should try again. If it worked, great; if not, oh well; no need to look at it and try again though. That's the benefit.

Yeah it's less bad, but it's still an inferior UX to pretty much everything that came before bloated infotainment systems. Both factors are important, an intuitive physical control and responsive feedback.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#258

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. My Volt's physical mute button seems to be software controlled. Normally it is very responsive, except when the car is starting up. It kills me whenever I start the car and the volume happened to be cranked up from earlier, music blasts, and the mute button is ineffective. Fortunately the volume knob seems to be hardware controlled and can be u…

Yeah, it's just poorly thought out engineering. There's really no excuse. I owned a B7 Audi A4 which simply limited the volume level to a user-defined setting when you turned on the car.

That concept is roughly 20 years old.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit of buttons isn't in the response time, it's in the tactile feedback that makes it so you don't need 16ms response time. I heard it click, I felt it click, it clicked. If the thing I wanted to happen doesn't, it's because it's broken and not because I can't tell if I clicked the right spot on my iPad. Not having to take your eyes off the road in these cases is the benefit of buttons, and no improvement to…

This isn't how tactile buttons in modern cars work. You're doing the same thing as pushing keys on a keyboard. The software can still be slow. Turn the physical volume dial on a car with a slow Apple CarPlay interface and tell me how that works out for you. Oh, it's too loud? But it takes 2 seconds for the software to respond due to lag and now you're fiddling with the volume button trying to not make it worse? A phy…

My car has this problem, only sometimes it takes a lot longer than two seconds.

The car when started always turns on the radio at the last volume the radio was on at, regardless of whether it was on when the car was turned off.

More than once, I have turned it on, and it was playing at full volume the Sirius FM ads, and would not lower the volume or turn off ( via the other physical buttons) for at least half a minute. I've done some damage to the volume button after that, and I have taken to just getting out of the car until the stereo responds.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#260
Is the entire premise of this article based on an intentional misunderstanding of JD Power saying "J.D. Power sees an average of 49.9 PP100 for infotainment-related items, including issues with voice-recognition systems, smartphone connectivity, and Bluetooth connection difficulties"

Which might argue that drivers hate bad interfaces that most automakers are notorious for, but doesn't talk about touchscreens as an interface specifically.

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