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The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

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Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies massively over hired developers to work on projects which have actually no value. It's still unclear to me the layoffs are affecting actual engineers, outside of Meta and Twitter. Meta is trying to execute one of the biggest company pivot in tech's history after completely giving up on the metaverse. Industry-wide they account for a huge number of laid-off developers. In the meantime, Twitter's layoffs ar…

> after completely giving up on the metaverse They have? What are they up to now? I guess I haven't been keeping up!

AI. [0]

Meta is a huge company. Switching to AI and spinning down their VR investments means a large restructuring.

[0] https://qz.com/meta-layoffs-2023-jobs-metaverse-ai-185019657...

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#122
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies massively over hired developers to work on projects which have actually no value. It's still unclear to me the layoffs are affecting actual engineers, outside of Meta and Twitter. Meta is trying to execute one of the biggest company pivot in tech's history after completely giving up on the metaverse. Industry-wide they account for a huge number of laid-off developers. In the meantime, Twitter's layoffs ar…

This is surely a gross oversimplification of what's happening. If you see layoffs.fyi, there are a lot of rows with more than 5% fired or where the numbers are in several hundreds to thousands. While some companies are known to regularly use the tactics you mention (and a lot others also do the same from time to time), they don't use mass firing as a means.

> layoffs.fyi

Website started tracking sometime in 2022.

> there are a lot of rows with more than 5% fired or where the numbers are in several hundreds to thousands.

These include "Non-Technical staff" which have been the majority of laid off employees. [0] [1] [2] [3] [4]

> they don't use mass firing as a means.

They do. Google, Amazon, Microsoft and Apple all had yearly layoffs for underperformers, while maintaining growing headcounts. Target was around 5-10%. The difference is these layoffs were not nearly as talked about in the media.

[0] https://interviewing.io/blog/2022-layoffs-engineers-vs-other...

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-24/tech-layo...

[2] https://www.computerworld.com/article/3690309/about-those-te...

[3] https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-03-0...

[4] https://techreport.com/news/3493451/microsoft-layoffs-ethics...

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#123
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame about your house and life savings. One man's brilliance is another man's "who wrote this crap?" It is indeed quite likely that most of us, possibly even all of us, will fall below the median of someone's measure.

Your sampling is flawed then. If you're arguing for some quantum metric that could make me lose it, you're for some reason not providing the word "us" with the same leverage which puts us into a situation we should just default to the literal definition of median since there's literally no way to prove (or disprove) your point. But sure, you've proven you can buzzkill anything, so you win!

As was said by the parent commenter (drewcoo) just before you placed your bet, because no measure is established, each evaluator is bound to have a different opinion of how to measure a developer, and as a result most developers are likely to fall below the median (according to someone's measure).

There is no mathematical contradiction. Perhaps a misunderstanding on your part? Either way, the bet was lost. Time for drewcoo to reap the rewards.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills This is 70% of software development, this is why I think people from the hard sciences often make better software engineers (in the true engineering sense of the word) than people actually trained in CS. Most CS folks can't experiment their way out of a paper bag.

I take huge exception with this remark. I graduated with a BS and MS engineering at a top-20 US engineering school. I also earned an MS at a top-25 computer science program. I found the CS program dramatically more challenging. My CS classmates were some of the brightest problem solvers I've ever worked with in my life. Then in my career, I have worked alongside some brilliant software developers who had academic bac…

You are a data point of one, and I have no idea how well you can apply the scientific method to solve problems and understand the state of your system.

I am not judging you, my statement was a generalization.

I would also say, most people in the hard sciences that are not CS cannot code their way out of a paper bag.

I agree with you, some of the best, most rigorous thinkers I have come across had a liberal arts background.

This isn't a quantitative statement about the kinds of people, but the things they focus on. I think CS is hard, but one thing that seems to be repeated is that super capable people can get by operating in an unscientific open-loop fashion which causes cognitive blind spots, and those blind spots are in using experimentation and the scientific method to solve problems.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills This is 70% of software development, this is why I think people from the hard sciences often make better software engineers (in the true engineering sense of the word) than people actually trained in CS. Most CS folks can't experiment their way out of a paper bag.

> This is 70% of software development Which is why I refuse to use the term "Software Engineer." Sorry, Java CRUD and copy-pasted React snippets from SO are the furthest thing from an engineering discipline. MOST jobs are web development, even if you're a "backend" developer. There probably is some legitimate engineering in embedded or development that requires an authentic scientific and engineering background, but…

> There probably is some legitimate engineering in embedded or development that requires an authentic scientific and engineering background, but considering the majority of code written is CRUD stuff...that ain't it.

I suppose the OS, database, networking and infrastructure to run those CRUD apps as well as the languages and runtimes magically appeared out of nowhere.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#126
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this article is about developers getting laid off - not c-suite and VPs.

Over the past decade more and more devs have been out-earning surgeons and white-shoe lawyers. The tech salaries of today feel like the i-banking salaries of the early 2000s. It’s not just the c-suite that’s been earning crazy money.

No offense, but what we so is more complicated that lawyers and also more impactful on society.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> was easily outclassed and outperformed by 3-month bootcampers I've literally never seen this happen in real life.

Happens all the time. Just the average graduate who got a degree and then a low effort job that put to sleep the little he knew from college. I've seen countless especially in consulting.

> Happens all the time.

Yet I've never seen this. At least, not with the market I work in. Perhaps in other markets.

> I've seen countless especially in consulting.

How is that relevant to SWE?

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're making a math joke. It's impossible for more than half of the sample to be below the median since the median is constructed so that half fall on each side. Having 60% of a sample below the median means someone calculated the median wrong.

> It's impossible for more than half of the sample to be below the median No. It is very much possible when the measure is undefined, as was the condition setup before the bet was made. If we take it to the logical end where your chosen measure is simply the inverse of my chosen measure, then those above the median by my measure fall below the median by your measure and vice versa, leaving the entire set of those out…

> No. It is very much possible when the measure is undefined, as was the condition setup before the bet was made.

I promise you, it's not, because that's not how medians work. This is the Wikipedia definition of a median:

> In statistics and probability theory, the median is the value separating the higher half from the lower half of a data sample, a population, or a probability distribution.

There have to be half on each side or it's not a median. The mean doesn't have to be distributed like that, but the median does. It doesn't matter if the measure is undefined; the median divides the upper half from the lower half. There are always 50% on each side (and one on the median, if there are an odd number of samples).

> If we take it to the logical end where your chosen measure is simply the inverse of my chosen measure, then those above the median by my measure fall below the median by your measure and vice versa, leaving the entire set of those outside of the median to be seen below the median (and also above the median).

Sure, but that's not a median. That's the intersection of people above 2 separate medians of 2 separate measures. You can't combine the median of separate measures and have it still be median; you can combine the measures into a single measure and that has a median where half are above and half are below.

> As it pertains to the larger discussion, how the quality of a developer is measured has not been established, which means everyone is likely to measure differently and often in conflicting ways, and so most of us are bound to be below the median according to someone.

Totally agree there, I'm just beating a pedantic, dead horse that that's not a measure (it's a bunch), and it doesn't have "a" median (it has a bunch). You're talking about the intersection of people above the medians of a bunch of measurements, which doesn't share any of the properties of a median or being above/below it.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had friends that did bootcamps and this mirrors my experience. They know how to use Express a little bit, but not how the middleware works or what HTTP status codes mean. They can write code if I translate it to requirements and show them something similar already in the code. They tend to flail around when handed a more open ended problem like "we need an endpoint that will return the last 5 purchases made by a pa…

> or what HTTP status codes mean. A junior hire I worked with a little while ago had actually done a college class on web development. I must admit the more senior engineers did rib him a little about it, being a little incredulous that a serious college would teach web dev and give out college credits for it. But nowadays there's even one at Stanford so we were wrong. Anyways, the first thing they learned in that cl…

I totally think colleges could teach HTTP. There's plenty of time to do it in. I generally think colleges do a meh to poor job of preparing CS grads for the real world, but they're leaps and bounds better than bootcamps. I'd probably give 50/50 odds on college grads knowing (or at least being able to remember) HTTP status codes.

> At the same time, where are the aerospace engineering bootcamps? Where's the law or medicine bootcamp? Did the people enrolling really thing they would be on-par with actual engineers working in the field after 12 weeks?

2 thoughts on that.

The first is that at least 2 of those 3 (not sure about aerospace engineers) require a specific degree (in most states). It would be a bold faced lie to tell anyone that the AMA is going to recognize them after a bootcamp, and certainly punishable under false advertisement laws. They're probably right that someone could do a bootcamp and be on-par with actual engineers. It might have to be a very specific someone with a very specific background, but it's probably possible.

The second is that yes, I think people do think that. I've had a couple of friends that have done them, and they were convinced that they could pay $12k for a 9 week bootcamp and be a desirable and productive developer. I tried to convince them otherwise, but failed. I hate them because I feel like they're selling an expensive, unrealistic dream to people who have no way to know better.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech-bros were by far the best paid class in the middle class. People laid off from big tech are now kicking it back in SE-Asia with the severance money they got. No tears will be shed for them. They'll easily find other employment outside of big-tech. They'll still be middle class. I'd put my energy caring more about underpaid teachers, doctors, nurses, emergency personnel, or other the lower classes of the middle c…

Most nurses, EMTs, and teachers haven't been middle class for DECADES.

Nurses make solid money.
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