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The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

businessinsider.com

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Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#101

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

aeternum wrote: post #97
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you it’s in a lot of way similar to the dotcom bubble but the issue seems to me simpler than you make it seems. Propped by an easy access to cheap investment fonds, companies massively over hired developers to work on projets which have actually no value. The massive demand leads to under qualified people being hired. The current layoff is a return to a sustainable situation. And even then if you look at…

In control systems, a common tradeoff is between a fast response that overshoots or a slow response that does not overshoot. We've seen that pace of innovation matters and if your goal is to maximize the pace of innovation, you want that fast response even if it means overshooting somewhat whenever there's a step change.

I am not sure if you mean that dirt-cheap money accelerated the pace of innovation.

But, if that is what you mean, i.e. historically low interest rates accelerate the pace of innovation, we would witness innovation gains in countries with negative or zero interest rates. But we haven't seen any shift.

There's a difference between malinvestment and investing in projects that don't go anywhere.

This is the difference between burning cash in a bonfire, vs using $1 dollar to make $0.XX cents.

I'd argue the system was rife with the former, not the latter

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#102

Post by 908B64B197 »

everforward wrote: post #82
naravara wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'. Maybe if you were actually any good. I reckon at least 60% of these bootcamp alumni were just dead weight. I've interviewed so many people who "learned to code" but had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills. They could maybe understand syntax, but for the most part they just have some basic familiarity with various frame…

I had friends that did bootcamps and this mirrors my experience. They know how to use Express a little bit, but not how the middleware works or what HTTP status codes mean. They can write code if I translate it to requirements and show them something similar already in the code. They tend to flail around when handed a more open ended problem like "we need an endpoint that will return the last 5 purchases made by a pa…

> or what HTTP status codes mean.

A junior hire I worked with a little while ago had actually done a college class on web development. I must admit the more senior engineers did rib him a little about it, being a little incredulous that a serious college would teach web dev and give out college credits for it. But nowadays there's even one at Stanford so we were wrong.

Anyways, the first thing they learned in that class was the HTTP protocol.

> I just think they were sold a lie

At the same time, where are the aerospace engineering bootcamps? Where's the law or medicine bootcamp? Did the people enrolling really thing they would be on-par with actual engineers working in the field after 12 weeks?

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#103

Post by valbaca »

skeyo wrote: post #47

I don't understand what they're insinuating with the phrase "those who chose to 'learn to code'"?

'learn to code' was a refrain during the incredibly hot dev market of the past couple of years.

Hell, I'd have every plumber and electrician that came to work on my house ask which programming language they should learn. It was viral.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#104

Post by anthonypasq »

swexbe wrote: post #73
hef19898 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quiteva few, actually. Downsizing does require a lot of admin work. Once the downsizing happened, well, those downsizing HR folks are the last to be downsized.

To do what exactly? Click send on the mass email?

how are you actually this naive? Classic HN attitude of thinking every single job that isnt engineering does nothing.

You understand theres tons of underlying systems like payroll, insurance, legal issues, severance packages, government filings that happen when you either hire or fire someone?

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#105

Post by 908B64B197 »

soVeryTired wrote: post #22
jzb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this article is about developers getting laid off - not c-suite and VPs.

Over the past decade more and more devs have been out-earning surgeons and white-shoe lawyers. The tech salaries of today feel like the i-banking salaries of the early 2000s. It’s not just the c-suite that’s been earning crazy money.

> more and more devs have been out-earning surgeons and white-shoe lawyers

That's not abnormal.

There's only so many surgeries a man can perform, and so many cases a lawyer can argue. But software scales differently. Good luck performing surgery on three different continents at the same time.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#106

Post by 908B64B197 »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #87
effingwewt wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History rhymes. This whole thing was a repeat of the dotcom bubble. Back then it was 'learn web design!' Here too we had bootcamps to learn to code in weeks. At that point the bubble was reaching critical mass. Same damn thing happened before. I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'. When the cost-cutting measures and hiring freezes began I tried warning again and was told 'its not…

I agree with you it’s in a lot of way similar to the dotcom bubble but the issue seems to me simpler than you make it seems. Propped by an easy access to cheap investment fonds, companies massively over hired developers to work on projets which have actually no value. The massive demand leads to under qualified people being hired. The current layoff is a return to a sustainable situation. And even then if you look at…

> companies massively over hired developers to work on projects which have actually no value.

It's still unclear to me the layoffs are affecting actual engineers, outside of Meta and Twitter.

Meta is trying to execute one of the biggest company pivot in tech's history after completely giving up on the metaverse. Industry-wide they account for a huge number of laid-off developers.

In the meantime, Twitter's layoffs are minimal (it's always been a small company) but extremely visible due to the company's new owner's very public persona.

Elsewhere, it's pretty close to the normal number of layoffs large tech companies do every year. It's a little known fact to outsiders, but tech companies trim underperformers every year from their workforces. The media almost never report on it, except this year they did because Twitter and Meta were in the news cycle.

These stats also have "Software Engineers" as a category alongside "QA Testers", "Web Devs" and "Application Engineers" listed as different jobs, so I'm skeptical of how accurate they are.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#107

Post by 908B64B197 »

epolanski wrote: post #64
ep103 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I bet you these people sure can leetcode!

While I've met plenty of terrible developers from the best universities and with the best grades and interviewing skills, people that was easily outclassed and outperformed by 3-month bootcampers, I can't lie crappiest one are much worse, people who struggle to implement very basic algorithms such as Fizz-Buzz.

> was easily outclassed and outperformed by 3-month bootcampers

I've literally never seen this happen in real life.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#108

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

908B64B197 wrote: post #106
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you it’s in a lot of way similar to the dotcom bubble but the issue seems to me simpler than you make it seems. Propped by an easy access to cheap investment fonds, companies massively over hired developers to work on projets which have actually no value. The massive demand leads to under qualified people being hired. The current layoff is a return to a sustainable situation. And even then if you look at…

> companies massively over hired developers to work on projects which have actually no value. It's still unclear to me the layoffs are affecting actual engineers, outside of Meta and Twitter. Meta is trying to execute one of the biggest company pivot in tech's history after completely giving up on the metaverse. Industry-wide they account for a huge number of laid-off developers. In the meantime, Twitter's layoffs ar…

> after completely giving up on the metaverse

They have? What are they up to now? I guess I haven't been keeping up!

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#110

Post by nyarlathotep_ »

nerpderp82 wrote: post #84
naravara wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'. Maybe if you were actually any good. I reckon at least 60% of these bootcamp alumni were just dead weight. I've interviewed so many people who "learned to code" but had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills. They could maybe understand syntax, but for the most part they just have some basic familiarity with various frame…

> had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills This is 70% of software development, this is why I think people from the hard sciences often make better software engineers (in the true engineering sense of the word) than people actually trained in CS. Most CS folks can't experiment their way out of a paper bag.

> This is 70% of software development

Which is why I refuse to use the term "Software Engineer."

Sorry, Java CRUD and copy-pasted React snippets from SO are the furthest thing from an engineering discipline. MOST jobs are web development, even if you're a "backend" developer.

There probably is some legitimate engineering in embedded or development that requires an authentic scientific and engineering background, but considering the majority of code written is CRUD stuff...that ain't it.

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