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I’m ready to trade in my electric car

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311–320 of 339 posts

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's silly to compare the cost of operation of two cars that aren't in competition to be purchased by the same person. You should compare the kinds of cars you'd be likely to buy against each other, or the kinds of cars your brother is likely to buy against each other. A model 3/Y purchase price is pretty much at the average new car price, so a person looking for a new sedan or mid sized SUV would look a step further…

Again. My original comment was in response to someone who asserted it was ALWAYS less expensive to operate an EV than to operate an ICE vehicle. Which is all manner of wrong. I gave a specific example involving an expensive EV my brother bought and a remarkably inexpensive used ICE vehicle I purchased. I did not say that every comparison of EVs with ICEs would exhibit the same relative costs. I was talking about a SP…

You're adding the word "always" and completely ignoring the "comparable" aspect. These two words radically change the meaning of the comment you're arguing against in your mind and what's actually written in the comment.

> all EVs are less expensive to operate than all ICE

The only comment in this thread with that language is your comment right here.

> At least until you have to sell your children to afford the replacement battery.

I guess ICE cars never have substantial drivetrain failures which ultimately result in the cost of repairs exceeding the value of the vehicle? The transmission in my 2000 Accord was starting to experience issues, how much would that have cost to replace? And then on top of that, it probably needed an EGR cleanout again along with a new water pump and timing belt. I don't know how many more years the catalytic converter would have lasted, those are cheap though right?

I guess all of those things are pretty cheap, what maybe $50 each right? Wait, rebuilt transmissions are like $2k before labor? Having someone replace the timing belt and water pump is almost $1k these days, and that's something I'm just supposed to do every 60,000mi or so? How many thousands of dollars was already spent keeping that car running?

Meanwhile the battery is practically the only real drivetrain wear item on an EV. No catalytic converter to rust or walk away, no EGR system getting clogged up, no timing belts to fail and destroy the valves, no valves getting gunked up, no piston rings to foul, any seals are under way less stress and far less prone to leak, coolant systems are practically never stressed and under way less pressure and aren't a tiny seal away from making forbidden milkshakes, etc.

If your argument about EV battery life is based around the battery only having a 10 year 100,000mi warranty, I'd hate to break it to you about ICE car warranties these days. Clearly just about every ICE car is just going to fall to pieces at about 60,000mi. Or maybe many vehicles vastly outlive their stated warranty times.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#312
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a look at online listings for used cars in my province, the cheapest Leafs are in the $14k range for models that are about as old as my existing secondary car. I'd crunch the numbers more seriously if I had to replace my secondary car today. For some napkin math, assuming I only charge at home and my cost of electricity doesn't go up for the next decade, I'd be looking at about $3500 in electricity costs for 1…

Personally, I went from a fully-owned 1997 near-mint Honda Civic to a 2014 Leaf. It handles all my driving needs (and the family still has a gas car for the _very_ rare long trip). I ran all the numbers in a big spreadsheet and determined that with fairly pessimistic numbers on the Leaf for depreciation/maintenance, and very optimistic numbers on the Civic for the same, total-cost-of-ownership worked out to approxima…

Yeah, looks like a clear win there. The market wonkiness over the past few years doesn't help my scenario - for $14k (upfront, minus whatever I could sell the old car for) I could go from a 2011 Ford Fiesta to a 2011 Leaf with comparable mileage. Due to said market wonkiness the Fiesta hasn't depreciated much, but since it wasn't worth much to start, those savings are limited.

FWIW my real numbers on the Fiesta over the past decade have worked out to 9¢/km depreciation, 6¢/km in ICE-specific maintenance, 9¢/km in non-ICE-specific maintenance and 7¢/km in fuel.

My home electric costs would run around 3.5¢/km for the Leaf, so I'd only be saving 3.5¢/km (or $350/year) in fuel. (And I'm locked in to a 5-year electricity contract at a pretty low rate for the area. If I had to re-sign today, my electric costs for a Leaf would be around 5¢/km.)

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#313
post #96

Yes, electric cars are not viable unless you can charge at home. Meaning, in your garage / driveway. This means they're not that useful for people who live in apartments, and most people who live in a city like SF and park on the street(*). They're also not viable for road trips. Teslas can make it work but you still have to be willing for your trip to take 20 - 30% longer than it would with a gas car. For people who…

> They're also not viable for road trips. Teslas can make it work but you still have to be willing for your trip to take 20 - 30% longer than it would with a gas car.

In my experience, 5-10% longer is more accurate.

Very little of my charging time is spent waiting for the car to charge. While the car is charging, I'm using the bathroom or eating.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that. I want to buy a Tesla now, you should get into advertising :)

Ha! Tesla wouldn't like what I have to say about FSD. It's an expensive scam that I strongly recommend you not buy . Other than that it's the best car I've ever owned.

IMO, "scam" is a strong word.

I absolutely believe that Tesla will eventually figure out FSD. It's still 5+ years away, though. I would definitely agree with recommending people don't buy it, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a scam.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#316
post #19

At the moment, ONLY Tesla has decent supercharging (i.e., fast-charging) infrastructure in the US: https://www.tesla.com/findus I regularly go on ~300-mile drives that need only a single charging stop, lasting 15-20 minutes, on my Tesla EV. By the time I've gone to the bathroom and gotten a drink, the supercharger has added 100-150+ miles of range and the EV is ready to go. All the stalls always work. No other EV bra…

Seriously.

The Supercharging network is the most under-appreciated, under-advertised feature of a Tesla.

3rd party charging stations are usually only 2-4 stalls. Tesla stations are usually 8-16, with a couple monster stations on I-5 having 50+.

> All the stalls always work.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I have been to a station that had a dead charger. But that's been once. And Tesla from what I've heard, Tesla is usually pretty quick about getting repairs done.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#317

This to me is still the weak link. It’s not just chargers, it’s 30+ minute charge time. As great as electric is, an extra hour in the car on a road-trip with 3 kids is a tough sell. More chargers would help but it’s really battery tech and charge times that need a few more innovations before I’d consider for a car I might take a road trip in.

> It’s not just chargers, it’s 30+ minute charge time.

Unless you're driving through an area where chargers are spaced really far out, you shouldn't need to be charging that long.

EVs charge faster at low state-of-charge. You'll spend less time charging if you go from 20% to 50% twice than if you went from 20% to 80% once.

I've got a trip planned from Portland to Santa Clara coming up. My longest planned charge is 20 minutes. Everything else is in the 10-15 minute range, arriving at each charging with about 15% battery.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#318
post #26
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is also the instant response to the gas pedal. A gasoline-powered engine, especially with a turbocharger, takes a while to respond, and the gearbox might need to switch gears. That could be up to 2 seconds until you start accelerating, and another 2 seconds until you reach top power output. In an EV, you press the pedal and everything happens instantly. Instant torque. All this makes a big difference in p…

Still, you can’t bear a muscle car in 0-60. Maybe 0-30 tho.

Kia Nero EV can beat a muscle car from 40-70 if the muscle car doesn't know they're racing. ;-)

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most gas stations have more then 2-4 pumps, and whatever number they have, you aren't at risk of waiting 30min for previous user to finish, or driving 30 miles to find the next pump. I say this as an exclusively EV driver for 5+ years myself... let's not defend the indefensible (EA's CCS network).

I'm just sharing my personal experiences. Every time I've charged at a DCFC in the past year all dispensers appeared to be working and I was able to either plug and charge or tap to pay with Google Wallet on my phone. I did not wait in a line once nor did I fail to charge on the first try. Meanwhile in the last year I've waited in lines several times to get gas, and I've pulled up to a pump only to find it out of ord…

Who is lining up at broken pumps???

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that 90% is not good when the alternative is 99.99%. For gas stations, 99.99% of the time the pump works. So much so that I don’t even consider that it doesn’t work. That’s the level of reliability that I expect.

I see plastic bags over pump handles way more than 0.01% of the time. In fact over the last year I've had more experiences with gas pumps being broken than EV dispensers not working.

Put a different way, although I have seen plastic bags over pump handles, I have never pulled into a gas station and not been able to fill up.
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