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Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

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321–330 of 435 posts

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an extra language I learned spanish at a young age and I find it pretty useless. The last time I used it in the past 20 years was watching Casa De Papiel Really wished I learned something like German or Chinese instead

Show me any German native speaker under 50 who’s not fluent in English. Language groups with small numbers of English competency is going to get you much further.

> Show me any German native speaker under 50 who’s not fluent in English.

I know quite a few of them. Comes with growing up in Germany.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#322
There are different types of bilingualism. Making an active effort to learn a second language for no reason other than cultural interest is a totally different activity from being forced to learn the dominant language as a disadvantaged minority in a non-native land. The former is associated with genius, the latter is actually a crutch.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#323

This topic misses the forest for the trees. Even if there is a cognitive difference in people who speak multiple languages, the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage pales in comparison to the far more impactful difference in the understanding of the world that proficiency in another language gives you. If you're a monolingual American born English speaker and you learn Chinese and go live in China for a year, you'…

I find it weird that no one even spoke of understanding linguistic determinism and how using one or the other language influences how you think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_determinism As someone who learned English as a second language, I very much experienced this.

That is because it is considered wrong. There is no solid evidence, despite whole labs trying for decades. There are only very weak effects, and given the state of research in psychology, I'd be surprised to find one that has been consistently reproduced.

The weak examples also do not prove Sapir-Whorf. They can usually be explained from extra-linguistic learning that occurs while learning a language.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to imagine there are parallel benefits as well. Just as a Java developer will become a better Java developer by learning programming languages with other paradigms, I have to believe knowing multiple spoken languages has tangible benefits outside of understanding the language itself.

French being my first language, I can says the same things with fancier words in english. But sometime I will use English turn of sentences in French and it sounds weird ( just did it a l’envers here, pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English ) I’m ok at Spanish too. My main motivation is to be able to talk to random peoples when traveling. English came de facto because of the internet and US soft pow…

> pretty sure “turn of sentence” does not exists in English

Yeah, that jarred for me. We do say "turn of phrase".

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#325
post #314

As someone fluent in four languages*, I agree. I would even argue that the opposite of an advantage is true. Consider this: it adds unnecessary cognitive load. When trying to think of a word, it comes to you in four different languages, which isn't helpful! I speak four languages out of necessity, not by choice. When you can focus on fewer languages, your proficiency in them improves. Although I can speak four langua…

> Now, I'm in the Netherlands and need to learn another language, but this one is proving slow to learn. I've heard people that speak many languages fluently claim that it gets easier after the fifth language - so keep at it. One tip; try as much as possible to stick to switching only between your mother tongue and the new(est) language you're learning - or at least have as many full days as you can where you avoid s…

Except Dutch doesn't resemble the other languages. The fact that my proudly unpatriotic countrymen (who secretly still believe that The Netherlands is the best place in the world) will start speaking in (broken) English as soon as they pick up a trace of a foreign accent, doesn't help either.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#326
post #254
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I speak 7 (4 acquired as a child, 1 in school, and 2 as an adult) and I find I'm able to understand understand cultural nuances better, which helps me to bridge cultural gaps and have multi-perspectival views on most things. (this is quite apart from the unproven Sapir-Whorf hypotheses stuff about language influencing thoughts -- it's not like that at all). Having multiple languages simply gives me affinity for multi…

You've probably invested thousand of hours in learning all of those languages. Some just by circumstance/luck (maybe something like this? mom speaking 1 language, dad speaking another, both speaking a common language, the place you were in having another secondary language), some through your own efforts. As always, the real question we can't really test is: what could you have done with probably literal person-years…

The investment you’re talking about is likely minimal. They only acquired two as an adult. There is time being spent there but learning a language is a fun and rewarding activity, which tends to become easier the more of them you know.

I speak 5 and had gotten used to being the exception; then I moved to Brussels and it’s normal here to meet people who speak even more, far more fluently than I do.

I was at this board game Meetup and met this young Ukrainian kid the other day. 13 years old. She was speaking fluent Russian and would switch to perfect French to speak to us, while following the conversation we were having in English. Her mom mentioned she speaks Ukrainian, and that her lessons are in Dutch at school. 13 years old - damn.

Anyway yeah when you have a good technique and some experience, learning a new language can be much quicker, and very passive.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#327
Only in US there's this strange obsession with counting how many languages one knows. If I count, everyone in my family is at least bilingual, and most are >= trilingual. It's not unusual for someone to speak 4 languages (2 regional languages, nationally common language, english).

If you really want to look into effects on cognition, it's better to count language families rather than individual languages. Two dravidian languages might be so similar (one to one mapping of linguistic concepts) that cognitively it might not change anything.

In india, the poorest people often speak the most number of languages and their cognition is affected by a number of other factors related to poverty. I'm not sure how one can properly control for such factors.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#328

This topic misses the forest for the trees. Even if there is a cognitive difference in people who speak multiple languages, the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage pales in comparison to the far more impactful difference in the understanding of the world that proficiency in another language gives you. If you're a monolingual American born English speaker and you learn Chinese and go live in China for a year, you'…

Globally, a very small percentage of bilingual people fit the "I decided to learn a different language and then used it to temporarily live in another country very different from my own" model. Much more common is, "I speak my local regional language and also the official national language, and so does everyone else in my community."

"They forced us to learn it in school" is another one. E.g. what I heard about Lebanon: And by forced, I mean you don't just do a French lesson, you learn other non-language lessons in other languages.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#329
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've probably invested thousand of hours in learning all of those languages. Some just by circumstance/luck (maybe something like this? mom speaking 1 language, dad speaking another, both speaking a common language, the place you were in having another secondary language), some through your own efforts. As always, the real question we can't really test is: what could you have done with probably literal person-years…

The investment you’re talking about is likely minimal. They only acquired two as an adult. There is time being spent there but learning a language is a fun and rewarding activity, which tends to become easier the more of them you know. I speak 5 and had gotten used to being the exception; then I moved to Brussels and it’s normal here to meet people who speak even more, far more fluently than I do. I was at this board…

There are different levels of investment and different level of expectations, and I say this as someone that speaks 3 languages (Romanian, English, French) and understands a few others at a basic level (German, Italian, Spanish).

Children have a very limited vocabulary and tend to make a lot of mistakes (grammar, word usage and pronunciation mistakes) and those mistakes are easily overlooked, especially by adults, since we tend to try to encourage them. Not the case for adult learners.

The second difficulty level is > native speaker. This is massively more difficult since you need to advance from maybe a basic 5-10-15k words to probably 20-40-60k words.

The investment level for C2 (proficiency according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...) is in the thousands of hours per language, including a ton of deliberate study.

To give you an example of C2, for Romanian you need to be at least a well educated high school student and really understand finer details of Romanian grammar. A native Romanian speaker who hasn't finished at least high school at a good high school is probably a bad C2, despite being a native speaker (or more likely a decent C1).

Now, you obviously don't need to be at the highest level for every language you know, but the gap in effort between levels is huge and people underestimate that. Most people that speak multiple languages are probably somewhere around B1-B2 at most of them. Even purely bilingual kids that learned both languages from birth have idiosyncrasies monolingual native speakers notice, for example.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#330
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also speak the same four languages plus one more. I do consider there are advantages to speaking several languages. I learned from English that you can be very precise, but also economical in exposition of complex matter. I learned from Russian how incredibly powerful and nuanced a language can be (too bad it is currently used to scare people everywhere). I always say that "you can translate anything into Russian"…

How do you translate parachute to Russian?

“Parachute” is identical in Russian, because in both languages it came from French.
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