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I’m ready to trade in my electric car

latimes.com

231–240 of 339 posts

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#231

> That means mapping out charging stations in a comprehensive, thoughtful way … not leaving it to the whims of the commercial sector, … It will require cities to develop plans for how and where to locate public chargers I spoke at public hearing last year in favor of an EV ordinance that my city passed. I believe that if we are to involve government with EV adoption, which is necessary, we need to be prepared for bac…

A thing to think about is: Do we in fact need top-down government mandates to do this? People with gas cars have range anxiety, too, and you need to be strategic about placement of gas stations to ensure that they don't get stuck in a place where they can't charge. And yet... this turns out to be a problem that largely solved itself without a centralizing authority, because "people want to buy gas/electricity for the…

You may not need government to mandate EV chargers. You may need government to remove barriers to deploying them, and that will require some nice encouragement and some not-so-nice arm twisting.

To install EV charging, unless you’re planning on generating your own energy on site, you’re likely going to procure power from your local utility, most of which are monopolies that are heavily regulated by your state utility commission.

Some estimates say it could cost utilities up to $5,380 per EV to upgrade the electrical infrastructure to support them [1]. Although utilities will earn more revenue through selling electricity, this will not completely offset the infrastructure investment. Will the costs be paid by ratepayers, some of whom may not have an EV? Your state utility commission may balk at that.

Of course federal incentives exist to offset costs, but many programs require participation by your state executive branch, who may not be in lock step with federal policy. Your state utility commission may not be in lock step with your state administration. If you can get agreement with your state policy makers, your utility will have to be employed to expand grid access. They may expect certain amount of consumption to make it worth their while, which you may not be able to provide for a few years until EVs gain adoption. Some utilities will charge you extra too if you use too much electricity, called demand charges, to disincentive consumption. Utilities will have their own schedule to build out the infrastructure, which may not match yours. They’re also a monopoly, so you can’t exactly shop around. Then you have the code and permitting requirements of the municipality your setting up the infrastructure in. The permitting process also follows their schedule, not yours.

With EV charging we have a massive coordination problem, with actors you can’t choose who aren’t strictly driven by market incentives. You’ll need some kind of combination of carrots (tax breaks and grants) and sticks (fines and penalties for slow walking a process) to make the infrastructure needed to support wide EV adoption.

[1] https://www.bcg.com/publications/2019/costs-revving-up-the-g...

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#232

This to me is still the weak link. It’s not just chargers, it’s 30+ minute charge time. As great as electric is, an extra hour in the car on a road-trip with 3 kids is a tough sell. More chargers would help but it’s really battery tech and charge times that need a few more innovations before I’d consider for a car I might take a road trip in.

I made 4 3000km trips in a Tesla with young children. (Ottawa to Saskatoon and back, twice). The battery lasts longer than a child's bladder, and a restroom stop with young children requires at least 20 minutes, enough time for a substantial charge. Only twice in the four trips did we ever have to wait for the car to finish charging. IOW it added 15 minutes to a 3 day trip.

What’s the charger situation like in Northern Ontario?

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#233

I have an Ioniq 5 and a PHEV pacifica. I love the ioniq5 and do new england road trips with it for skiing. I only have to hunt for fast charging on these longer trips so it's kind of a fun route planning game. I also love having the minivan to take 6 people anywhere and not worry about charging. I have the luxury of picking the right tool for the job. Not everyone else does. After owning an EV I have come to apprecia…

Gasoline is a pain in the ass. You have to go out and fill your car up in dirty gas stations once or twice per week, and the time you’ll need gas is invariably the moment when you’re in the biggest hurry and can’t waste the time filling up. EVs, on the other hand, eliminate all of that. It is as though a magical fairy comes to my house every night (and again between every minor drive) and fills my “tank” to the top.…

And don't forget that you can alternatively rent an ICE car for long road trips.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#234
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I never have issues predictably charging my Tesla on long trips. Range anxiety is non-existent. The supercharger network is glorious. When I tried to charge my previous EV (a non-Tesla) at public chargers, half they time they didn’t work, or charged at unpredictably slow rates.

> Range anxiety is non-existent. The supercharger network is glorious. Yes, that's my experience too. I never worry about range.

I was trying to make a trip work from Seattle to John day Oregon. It still isn’t very viable, well, it might work now but the range anxiety is there, even for a Tesla.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been to electrify america stations twice. One had a broken charger at once of the two super fast stalls. The second time I had to wait in line because it was full, and then when I got in the card reader wasn't working. I had to install the app to be able to pay and get electricity. It was very stressful as we thought we might be totally effed. Compared to Tesla, where you just pull up and plug in. No app, no c…

> Compared to Tesla, where you just pull up and plug in. No app, no card reader. It just works. This has been 100% of my Electrify America experiences as well, along with a few other brands. Some have been able to take payment by tap to pay credit card as well without an app.

Tesla lacks the need to tap card and you just plug in. Supposedly that tech is coming to CCS EVs someday.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the Tesla he wanted at the time he wanted to purchase it was $76,000 more than my Fiat. The existence of $30k Teslas at other points in spacetime do not change that fact. If we rework the example with a $30k Tesla, that's still $26k more than my used car, which brings the break-even point down to about 150,000 miles (if you assume electricity going into the EV is without cost) or somewhere around 225,000…

But if you're comparing the break even costs you should really be comparing a cheap used version of the car instead of a high end version as you're comparing it to a ludicrously cheap counterexample. His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. I don't understand how anyone can afford the millions of dollars gas cars cost. Or maybe $4k cars that aren't absolutel…

> His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars.

Silly comparisons are fun I suppose, but for someone who is poor ultimately the only comparison that matters is how much will it cost this year.

The cheapest non-salvage Tesla I see on craigslist right now is 30K. I also see tons of 2K-4K Honda/Toyota/Mazda cars that will give someone plenty of low-cost miles for years to come. It is not realistic to think a poor person will buy a 30K car on the hope that in a few decades the operating costs will break even and eventually save them money.

> At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh

Here with PG&E they charge 33c/kWh after midnight, or 56c/kWh during peak hours.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#237
I've been driving a Chevy Bolt EV for almost 6 years now. I have the great luxury of a garage with solar panels on the roof and 240v service, so charging is fast, almost free, and very low effort. I've never been happier with a car, but I can see how someone without easy access to high voltage charging (e.g., in an apartment) would have a much less satisfactory experience.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#238

In 1997, I bought a DVD player, and didn't have a VCR. You couldn't rent DVDs at Blockbuster, or indeed anywhere. Most movies weren't available on DVD, so you could watch only the few that had made it to the format (and had to purchase them for full price, at that). Being a DVD-only owner was limiting and annoying in a bunch of ways, even though the DVD experience was a lot better than the VCR experience. If in 1997,…

> even though the DVD experience was a lot better than the VCR experience

Remember how with a VHS you could skip all the obnoxious copyright and fbi warnings but with the DVD you were stuck with them?

Not all newer is a better experience.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#239
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is absolutely true that people who don't want to be early adopters shouldn't be. At the same time: I had no regrets about being a DVD early adopter, because (hot take incoming) DVDs were in fact better than VHS tapes, and not dealing with VHS's badness was really nice, even if it was also annoying in some ways. Similarly, there are going to be people who are happy being EV early adopters because the (very…

It's a different risk: if your novel DVD player did not work, you could just watch something else. If your novel EV doesn't charge, you may be left stranded, miss a flight or fail to reach medical care. Moreover, no government planned to ban VCRs using those early problematic DVD players as a justification.

> It's a different risk: if your novel DVD player did not work, you could just watch something else.

Also, you could (and nearly everyone did) add a DVD player to your stack but keep the VCR so you had both.

Sure, the same is possible with cars, but gets several orders of magnitude more expensive to have multiple cars so it's not practical for many people.

Re: I’m ready to trade in my electric car

#240
post #19

At the moment, ONLY Tesla has decent supercharging (i.e., fast-charging) infrastructure in the US: https://www.tesla.com/findus I regularly go on ~300-mile drives that need only a single charging stop, lasting 15-20 minutes, on my Tesla EV. By the time I've gone to the bathroom and gotten a drink, the supercharger has added 100-150+ miles of range and the EV is ready to go. All the stalls always work. No other EV bra…

> I charge at home for around 1/3 the cost per mile compared to filling a comparable ICE vehicle with a poisonous combustible liquid.

Tesla batteries are filled with poisonous combustible electrolyte. The cost of batteries easily dwarfs the fuel cost savings with appropriate discount rate. And the electricity probably comes from coal or low efficiency nat gas turbine.

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