Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs • Hacker News Board

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#271

Post by deepsun » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 9:36 PM UTC

profeaturo wrote: post #31

deepsun wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relax, no one is really considering meat foods to go away in the next 100 years or so. It's all about the access to the vegetarian and vegan foods to those who want it, and it happens to become more popular, so market adapts. But you present it like someone tries to take your food.

We’re only a few disasters away from the government deciding that the climate crisis requires drastic measures, including a severe rationing of meat and other products considered harmful to the environment. It’s clear from the rhetoric that this is the direction we are moving in, and it’s also clear that a great percentage of the population will comply and even celebrate such restrictions.

Well, if we're talking about climate change action items, then it actually makes sense to me, although I cannot find any numbers on how effective it is (comparing, to, say, better insulation of house windows).

By the way, "the government deciding" sounds like it's totally detached from public wish. But in democratic countries public has a lot of influence on the government, way more than popular meme says (speaking as an emigrant from autocratic regime), it just public is not exercising their right (or really trust the government). So it's actually "people are going to decide".

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#272

Post by deepsun » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

jiggywiggy wrote: post #11

deepsun wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relax, no one is really considering meat foods to go away in the next 100 years or so. It's all about the access to the vegetarian and vegan foods to those who want it, and it happens to become more popular, so market adapts. But you present it like someone tries to take your food.

Maybe not with you. But in most modern cities they are actively campaigning against meat, they are mostly using the moral card: you are destroying the planet. How fun.

Campaigning (for anything) is good, I see nothing wrong about it.

Active people will (and should) win, that's the law of nature.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#273

Post by deepsun » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

jiggywiggy wrote: post #148

matsemann wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people (including you it seems) don't really understand the scale at which meat production harm the environment compared to vegetables. Yes, every mass production have problems, but with meat you need multiple times the amount of everything, because you first need to produce the food the cow or whatever eats, and then the meat production. For instance, it's multiple times less co2 impact for me eating an avocado…

You can't honestly claim buying avacado's is better for the planet, it's wreaked social & ecological havoc in multiple south American countries with dried up rivers, gangs and lack of diversification of the income of a country. Next to that it's not always Plants vs meats. In many places only cattle can graze but not much of value can grow. The CO2 issue is really a terrible comparison. Everything cows put out has be…

The question is about scales (or proportions) -- yes, most mass produced foods, (e.g. avocados) wreaked havoc, but the scope meat production does that might be way larger.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#274

Post by ben_w » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 9:54 PM UTC

waihtis wrote: post #268

ben_w wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the name for what you're doing there is "begging the question". Vegan diets generally have protein and other nutrients.

to my original point: > why I should exchange a well-functioning animal-based diet into a vegan one where I need to supplement by default to fulfill human needs applies also in the protein domain, seeing how vegan protein sources lack or have minimal concentrations of some essential amino acids, for instance

That issue basically only happens if you eat exactly one plant, not if you eat at least two, because different plants miss different amino acids and most protein rich plants have most amino acids and the differences overlap nicely.

This is so easy you're probably doing it already even as a meat eater: Mexican chilli with rice? Beans and rice compensate for each other's weaknesses. Peanut butter on bread? Peanuts and wheat cover each other.

There are some things that are technically complete by themselves, but mycoprotein (Quorn) which I think is complete, isn't available for purchase everywhere.

Conversely if you do single-foodsource-diet with meat, you can also get problems, most famously protein poisoning and scurvy.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#275

Post by smeagull » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 10:55 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #136

smeagull wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not cheaper here. The moment it is I'll switch to oat milk. I think it tastes better.

Oat milk has no lactoferrin, a powerful anti-viral/bacterial/fungal compound in milk, so you are going to eliminate a significant immunity boost.

So I'll throw in some cinnamon. There's no shortage of foods that preserve themselves.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#276

Post by dennis_jeeves1 » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 1:51 AM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #221

bitL wrote: post #134

...and I was forced to switch to a carnivore diet for elimination purposes as some veggies were wreaking havoc on my body. Not sure getting healthier will be even an option in a few years.

Same, for the same reason, for 36 months now, and I've gotten much healthier according to the lab results and my subjective quality of life.

You 2 are the enlightened few...

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#277

Post by dennis_jeeves1 » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 1:51 AM UTC

bitL wrote: post #134

...and I was forced to switch to a carnivore diet for elimination purposes as some veggies were wreaking havoc on my body. Not sure getting healthier will be even an option in a few years.

You are among the few that are enlightened ...

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#278

Post by karmakurtisaani » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 3:10 PM UTC

throwaway290 wrote: post #248

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wife, kids, full time job, hobbies.. simply no time or energy to start looking at each item and finding alternatives when finally buying groceries.

The task is simplified to looking at label . Respectfully, if even that is too much, you don't particularly care about avoiding Nestle products at all...

Almost everything can be reduced to "the task is simplified to a simple sounding thing". However, when you have dozens of such things in your daily life to worry about, it stops being so simple.

Also, if someone in my household likes a particular Nestle product, what's the procedure then? Stick to my principles and fight every time? Make an exception for that one? How many exceptions will there be in the end?

Ultimately, I guess I don't particularly care about avoiding Nestle in the end. Not to the extent that I would have to make my life more complicated than it already is.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#279

Post by throwaway290 » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 5:16 AM UTC

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #278

throwaway290 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The task is simplified to looking at label . Respectfully, if even that is too much, you don't particularly care about avoiding Nestle products at all...

Almost everything can be reduced to "the task is simplified to a simple sounding thing ". However, when you have dozens of such things in your daily life to worry about, it stops being so simple. Also, if someone in my household likes a particular Nestle product, what's the procedure then? Stick to my principles and fight every time? Make an exception for that one? How many exceptions will there be in the end? Ultima…

> Almost everything can be reduced to "the task is simplified to a simple sounding thing".

How? Recycling for example is very complicated, takes time and effort sourcing recyclable things and shipping them for recycling later. Buying things manufactured sustainably is very complicated, because that stuff is not listed on labels in sufficient detail so you need to do actual research. Etc etc.

But here you have two products on the shelf. One has Nestle logo on the label the other doesn't. If you don't have significant issues with your vision, it takes 30 sec top to skim labels and tell which one is which. And the kicker is, you only have to do it once then you already know which logo is Nestle and just don't buy it. And if you as you say already try to be mindful of your diet you are already browsing multiple products looking at labels anyway! So I must be really missing something.

Personally the only reason not to do it is if I am poor at the moment and can't afford the non-Nestle one...

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#280

Post by karmakurtisaani » Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 8:54 AM UTC

throwaway290 wrote: post #279

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everything can be reduced to "the task is simplified to a simple sounding thing ". However, when you have dozens of such things in your daily life to worry about, it stops being so simple. Also, if someone in my household likes a particular Nestle product, what's the procedure then? Stick to my principles and fight every time? Make an exception for that one? How many exceptions will there be in the end? Ultima…

> Almost everything can be reduced to "the task is simplified to a simple sounding thing". How? Recycling for example is very complicated, takes time and effort sourcing recyclable things and shipping them for recycling later. Buying things manufactured sustainably is very complicated, because that stuff is not listed on labels in sufficient detail so you need to do actual research. Etc etc. But here you have two pro…

> How?

But recycling is easy! Just put the right thing in the right bin!

You have totally been sidestepping the part where I talk about this small inconvenience in relation to the existing complexity of life. I take it that you don't have small kids, since the thing is that when you do, you in general want to simplify whatever you can.

If one product takes 30 seconds to check and find a replacement (might not always exist!), that's a good 20 minutes on a proper family shopping run. I also don't have a super brain that will automatically remember the manufacturer for some 50 products, so I'd absolutely be stuck with checking each time.

Granted, once it becomes a routine to avoid certain products, it would be rather easy. But to get there would take time and effort that I'd rather spend elsewhere.