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Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

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Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a bunch of irrelevant nonsense. Not sure why you would post it.

Unfortunately, looking at this (pretty new) account's recent posts makes me think you may be arguing in good faith against a climate change troll. It's just a general pattern of Gish-galloping, and relying on the principle that disproving bullshit takes lot more effort than spewing it.

A response like "that looks like nonsense" isn't arguing in good faith, is it. That's not even arguing at all. It's the shallow dismissal of someone who doesn't know how to respond to unexpected evidence of incorrectness.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#372
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mann filed a lot of lawsuits over this and has lost all of them: https://www.steynonline.com/11508/youre-once-twice-three-tim... He didn't spend 9 years fighting a very expensive lawsuit and then, when he finally had a chance to prove that his work wasn't fraudulent in front of a judge, decide he was busy with other things lol! He refused to present the relevant evidence because his goal from the start was an ideolog…

All dimissed on technicalities, go read the judgments

"Technicalities" like Mann filing a lawsuit and then never actually doing anything to move it forward? The judge is extremely harsh towards Mann in the Mann v Ball case dismissal, stating in plain language that Mann has engaged in abusive behavior. He also clearly tried to BS the court about the reasons for delay.

That sort of behavior is consistent with abusing the legal system so he could say he was suing for defamation without ever having to actually win - for a decade! Dismissing such a case isn't a technicality. As the judge points out, Ball got witnesses lined up in his defense and Mann delayed so long that Ball's witnesses actually died of old age.

Honestly, I hadn't read the dismissals before. But it's laughable to call this dismissed on technicalities. Mann comes across as an abusive, manipulative and extraordinarily untrustworthy person in all of this. A clearer case of abusive litigation is hard to find.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a bunch of irrelevant nonsense. Not sure why you would post it.

It's not irrelevant, but there's a lot of extra information that he is leaving out... other variables ? rate of change ?

Not knowingly leaving out. Happy to debate such variables. What's your proposed hypothesis?

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jacket is preventing heat loss via convection. You literally can't prevent heat loss from radiation. By the zeroth law, an object with specific temperature is at thermal equilibrium with photonic heat bath at the same temperature. If you look at the interface between them, whether there's CO2 there or a black body doesn't matter, because you could replace it with photonic heat bath. The comparison to greenhouse (…

there doesn't have to be a difference in radiation energy for the second body to shift the equilibrium temperature

This is physics misunderstanding. There's no such thing as "equilibrium temperature" between two systems. The zeroth law of thermodynamics is that all you need to know in order to tell whether two systems are at thermodynamic equilibrium with each other is the temperature. If they have the same temperature, they are at equilibrium, period. You don't need to know anything else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeroth_law_of_thermodynamics

In this case, a wall which only allows transfer of heat via radiation (say, two simple thin transparent walls that only stop particles with vacuum gaps between them) is a diathermal wall.

These arguments aren't anything new, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_law_of_thermal_r...

Climate arguments with laypeople is usually full of things that go against common sense thermodynamic intuition, and then the funny thing is that when you state the common sense thermodynamic intuition, which doesn't fit the narrative, they object to things which are as basic physics as you can get.

I bet that the confidence in climate change takes a nose dive with understanding of physics. It reaches a stable position somewhere of "well we're doing approximations too so without looking into it, maybe their approximations aren't so bad". If you do go looking into it in detail, you're either too invested to go against it, or you go against it and get cancelled / whatever, and then you're faced with a squad of believers who understand nothing but defend it with absolute confidence, with understanding that sounds more like caloric or phlogiston theory than actual modern physics.

There's a funny social gradient from climate modelers which know exactly how far away from the truth these models are, but still do the best that they can, to their managers, press releases, activists, politicians, where the entire thing looks like a game of broken telephone. And the honest people who say "I'm doing the best I can but I know it's not enough" are probably drowning in the shadow of those with dishonest conviction.

EDIT: to also correct a little simplification, you can prevent heat loss to radiation by reflectivity. But that's not the case with CO2 in the atmosphere, the arguments of greenhouse effect is not about reflectivity. Reflectivity would be the albedo of the surface, which is indeed important. But the atmosphere is completely negligible for reflectivity purposes.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#375
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All dimissed on technicalities, go read the judgments

"Technicalities" like Mann filing a lawsuit and then never actually doing anything to move it forward? The judge is extremely harsh towards Mann in the Mann v Ball case dismissal, stating in plain language that Mann has engaged in abusive behavior. He also clearly tried to BS the court about the reasons for delay. That sort of behavior is consistent with abusing the legal system so he could say he was suing for defam…

But you agree that all the judgment also recognize that the jury would've edit: been able to recognize the comments as defamatory, and that, factually, in reality, the cases were - black on white - dissmissed on technicalities instead of from an actual judgment of anything scientific?

The whole point is that you bringing this up has nothing to do with the subject of this conversation.

And that you were blatantly wrong and misguiding in saying that he "lost the case" as the case was not argued

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Methane naturally turns into CO2 in the atmosphere After how long? A half-life of a decade , as I understand it? Not exactly the order of magnitude of luxury time we have to spare. > Even if it did increase warming more than CO2 "Even if it did" is strange wording for an established fact. Do you write "even if the sky was blue"? > once methane emissions reach a steady level, reducing methane emissions won't change…

The narrative is very misleading. There are two directions to look at it: convincing yourself via a convincing story, or convincing yourself via a convincing calculation. The story they tell defies basic thermodynamic intuition, and seems to skip over all the parts that would put the narrative in doubt. The premise is that greenhouse gases absorb black body radiation from the surface. First of all, greenhouse gas is…

> Secondly, think about this thought experiment: a layer of pure CO2 gas covers the lowest layer of air near the surface. By how much would that get warmer compared to air? The answer is there won't be any difference. That's because the surface and the air near it are at the same temperature, so they emit exactly the same amount of energy.

You've added an assumption in your question that the entire atmosphere is at the same temperature. This is trivially false; the atmosphere varies greatly in temperature. Some levels of the atmosphere can heat others, and indeed would do so more if those levels are composed of gasses which absorb more energy in the frequencies emitted, like CO2 does in practice.

> the absorption is possible only because the molecules have more degrees of freedom to vibrate.

The gases in the atmosphere are not blackbodies. They absorb different amounts of radiation at different frequencies because of those vibrational modes. If you substitute a gas in the atmosphere that absorbs no infrared with one that absorbs a lot of infrared, the atmosphere overall absorbs more energy and therefore warms.

> Except these models are dumpster fire. You can download some of them from NASA's website and judge the quality of code for yourself. Old fortran code, all the models copy code from each other,

The code quality has absolutely nothing to do with the predictive power of those models. Unless you have found bugs in the code, this is irrelevant.

> many things which aren't constant physically are constant in the code, functions full of tens of "if else" statements whose physical validity is highly in question.

Of course simplifying assumptions have been made. Can you point to an example of a variable made constant that you think is an oversimplification that would change the predictions so drastically as to remove warming from added CO2?

> There are also other glaring counter intuitive things about the narrative. Somehow CO2 effects continue to work slowly over decades, and the system doesn't reach an equilibrium with the current levels of CO2 until decades ahead.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. It seems like you're implying that all thermodynamic changes to a system have to occur instantaneously. We may also not reach equilibrium for a very long time, if (as is very possible!) the warming of the Earth decreases its albedo.

> This is completely against normal thermodynamic intuition. Meta stable states exist, yes, and there are out of equilibrium systems. But usually the reason for systems not reaching the more stable state, is that their fluctuations are too small. In this case, the fluctuations are much much bigger than the supposed stable state change. We're talking about barely a degree change over decades in systems that fluctuate by several degrees daily. It makes no sense to claim their equilibrium will only be reached in decades while their fluctuation exceeds the difference to equilibrium daily.

I'm sorry, but your understanding of thermodynamics is extremely flawed. Metastable states have nothing to do with this. You are also making the basic error of confusing weather with climate here. The temperature increase that is discussed in climate science is an increase in the total energy of the atmosphere. By increasing the ability of the atmosphere to absorb energy, you increase its energy.

You are also arguing against models but have completely failed to address the fact that the atmosphere _is warming_. This is being measured and is no longer a hypothetical.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#377
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What utter tripe. Water is made of hydrogen and oxygen and we know their chemical properties exceedingly well. Endlessly splitting hairs that it's not "settled" when someone puts another digit of accuracy at the end of the accepted mass of a proton isn't being pedantic, it's just being pompous.

And yet comparing a simple chemical composition of water and the effects of a particular gas on a large and very poorly understood system is somehow less tripe? Please.

The greenhouse effect is not "poorly understood" and the link between CO2 and climate is clearly established over millions of years of geologic time. If you have trouble understanding how this is done, I recommend you read more instead of posting on hackernews. You could start here:

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=co2+and...

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point about animal-based carbon emissions being a closed loop, but I don't think your conclusion that this loop doesn't accelerate the greenhouse effect is correct. Methane degrades to C02 in 1-1 proportion. So at any time, if more atmospheric carbon is concentrated as methane than as C02 then the greenhouse effect will be stronger at that time (because methane is a stronger GHG). If agriculture remov…

> then total atmospheric carbon is unchanged but the proportion of methane, and therefore the total GHG effect, is increased at that time. Summing over time, and you get an increase in overall heat that has been trapped This is not correct. We are already in a steady state. Methane levels due to cattle are already at their maximum (given a fixed amount of cattle). At any point in time, gras will absorb some CO2 from…

Maybe we were talking past each other.

> ...and if the amount of cattle is kept constant...

My point (unclear) is that this is not a constant, but a variable (in the sense that it is a societal choice). Animal agriculture shifts more of the distribution of atmospheric carbon at any time toward methane, which accelerates warming.

> ...this whole closed loop has already settled into a steady state: At any point in time, the amounts of methane and CO2 in the atmosphere due to cattle are constant.

The premise that the amount of animal agriculture is constant is incorrect. It has been increasing year over year for some time as the human population increases. The theoretical concentration of methane has been increasing over that same time. It's also worth noting that industrial animal agriculture is not a closed loop because it currently relies on mined hydrocarbons for feedstock fertilizer and transport.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there doesn't have to be a difference in radiation energy for the second body to shift the equilibrium temperature

This is physics misunderstanding. There's no such thing as "equilibrium temperature" between two systems. The zeroth law of thermodynamics is that all you need to know in order to tell whether two systems are at thermodynamic equilibrium with each other is the temperature. If they have the same temperature, they are at equilibrium, period. You don't need to know anything else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeroth_law…

Actually the model for the greenhouse effect is pretty simple, climate models are much more sophisticated than that for example CESM have about 5000 equations as the model takes into account interactions between the biosphere and the atmosphere, clouds and carbon stocks. But greenhouse effects is a really simple you can implement it yourself and verify the results, here's a good start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealized_greenhouse_model

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#380
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Technicalities" like Mann filing a lawsuit and then never actually doing anything to move it forward? The judge is extremely harsh towards Mann in the Mann v Ball case dismissal, stating in plain language that Mann has engaged in abusive behavior. He also clearly tried to BS the court about the reasons for delay. That sort of behavior is consistent with abusing the legal system so he could say he was suing for defam…

But you agree that all the judgment also recognize that the jury would've edit: been able to recognize the comments as defamatory, and that, factually, in reality, the cases were - black on white - dissmissed on technicalities instead of from an actual judgment of anything scientific? The whole point is that you bringing this up has nothing to do with the subject of this conversation. And that you were blatantly wron…

No, the jury would not have found it defamatory if it were true, which it was.

The cases were dismissed without evaluating the science because of Mann's behavior. The people he sued wanted to just get on with it and debate the science, but Mann literally filed suit and then never turned up to his own legal proceedings. Hence the judge's displeasure.

Apparently Mann tried to make the same argument you made about not losing the case. He lost all the cases. If the judge dismisses your case that is losing. You don't get to file a lawsuit, never turn up and then when the judge tosses you out, claim you won.

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