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Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

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Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methane naturally turns into CO2 in the atmosphere. Even if it did increase warming more than CO2, once methane emissions reach a steady level, reducing methane emissions won't change a thing, compared to CO2 emissions. This is also similar to meat production emissions. Most of carbon emissions in meat productions are of carbon which was captured from the air as a part of the production cycle, by the plants which fee…

> Methane naturally turns into CO2 in the atmosphere After how long? A half-life of a decade , as I understand it? Not exactly the order of magnitude of luxury time we have to spare. > Even if it did increase warming more than CO2 "Even if it did" is strange wording for an established fact. Do you write "even if the sky was blue"? > once methane emissions reach a steady level, reducing methane emissions won't change…

> It's kind of really, really important how high that "steady level" is and how fast we'd reach it though, no?

(Update: In hindsight I'm not sure you were talking about methane emissions in general or about methane from meat production. Here, I'm focussing on the latter. Meanwhile, fossil methane is of course a huge problem.)

As for the second part of your question: When it comes to meat production, we have already reached the steady state.

As for the first part: Yes. But it is not that high. Let's say the total amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere due to cattle (and rice and other types of agriculture) account for a fraction X of the world's yearly emissions. (In Germany, for instance, X = 0.06, i.e. 6%.) Let's assume for simplicity the remaining emissions are exclusively due to fossil fuels and all emissions are the same every year. Let Y be the fraction of agricultural emissions relative to fossil emissions, i.e. Y = X/(1-X). (= 6.4% for Germany)

Then, after N years, the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere due to agriculture, relative to the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere due to fossil fuels (burned during that timeframe) will be Y/N. This is because agricultural greenhouse gases in the atmosphere will stay constant – because we're in a steady state – but greenhouse gases due to fossil fuels will keep on accumulating.

Putting e.g. N=20 yields Y/N = 0.3% (for Germany). N=100 yields 0.06%.

In short, the amount is negligible. Fossil fuels are a real problem when it comes to climate change, agriculture is not.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#292
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plants that feed the cattle are overwhelmingly fertilized using fertilizer derived from petroleum products, so it’s not an accurate picture that the feed plants are carbon capture methods.

Carbon in plants comes exclusively from air, not from fertiliser.

This is true, but if you use synthetic fertilizer, even if the fertilizer itself contains no carbon it still uses hydrogen split from methane. The carbon part has already gone into the atmosphere, which plants then pull down. You would need to sequester the carbon released during SMR for synthetic fertilizer to have no effect.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#293
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On here? Nothing will change from the chorus of "well I get all my meat from this local quaint little butcher who knows all the cows by name and they're raised on grassland that cannot sustain arable farming so it's fine, actually", completely ignoring what happens when 8 billion people need to go to that butcher...

> they're raised on grassland that cannot sustain arable farming Funny, neither can "regular" farmland sustain "arable farming" (or whatever that means). Mainstream food production has a massive input of chemical fertilizers produced from fossil fuels.

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Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methane naturally turns into CO2 in the atmosphere. Even if it did increase warming more than CO2, once methane emissions reach a steady level, reducing methane emissions won't change a thing, compared to CO2 emissions. This is also similar to meat production emissions. Most of carbon emissions in meat productions are of carbon which was captured from the air as a part of the production cycle, by the plants which fee…

You make a good point about animal-based carbon emissions being a closed loop, but I don't think your conclusion that this loop doesn't accelerate the greenhouse effect is correct. Methane degrades to C02 in 1-1 proportion. So at any time, if more atmospheric carbon is concentrated as methane than as C02 then the greenhouse effect will be stronger at that time (because methane is a stronger GHG). If agriculture remov…

> then total atmospheric carbon is unchanged but the proportion of methane, and therefore the total GHG effect, is increased at that time. Summing over time, and you get an increase in overall heat that has been trapped

This is not correct. We are already in a steady state. Methane levels due to cattle are already at their maximum (given a fixed amount of cattle).

At any point in time, gras will absorb some CO2 from the atmosphere, cattle will convert some gras / carbon into methane and emit the latter into the atmosphere, and some methane in the atmosphere will decompose into CO2. This is a continuous process, that's happening every second, and if the amount of cattle is kept constant, there is a maximum amount of methane that you can reach in the atmosphere as well as a maximum amount of CO2. After all, the total amount of carbon involved in the process is constant – energy conservation dictates that mass doesn't appear out of nowhere.

In fact, since we've been doing agriculture for a time much longer than the time scale in which grass grows, a cow digests grass or methane decomposes into CO2, this whole closed loop has already settled into a steady state: At any point in time, the amounts of methane and CO2 in the atmosphere due to cattle are constant. The resulting radiative forcing will thus stay constant, too.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you bother changing the graph to show world population instead of just looking at the default selection? Here is the link to assist you in this: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/population-and-demograp... It is a straight upwards line. But as I said, they don't care about population, only CO2 levels, which also go up in a straight line. It would indeed be a waste of time for you to argue further, because you…

I was serious when I said you should learn about the population-lag effect. The global population has been steadily declining since 1990 as even a cursory search would have shown you. So that eventual other readers haven’t entirely wasted their time, here is a link to the relevant UN source: https://population.un.org/wpp/Download/Standard/MostUsed/ I’m not going to bother answering the rest of your comment.

The global population has been steadily declining since 1990

I assume you mean global population growth here? The global population isn't expected to decline until 2100 [1], barring cataclysmic disasters.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#296
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After how long? A half-life of a decade, as I understand it? Not exactly the order of magnitude of luxury time we have to spare Doesn't matter, if we keep the number of heads of cattle constant, the methane from them in the atmosphere will be constant. If we keep using the same number of ICE cars otoh, the CO2 from them in the atmosphere will keep increasing. We would have to drop the number of ICE cars to 0 to sto…

If the amount of methane in the atmosphere is constant, the CO2 from that in the atmosphere will keep increasing.

As the sibling already said: We're in a closed loop. Methane decomposes into CO2, so if you want to maintain a constant level of methane in the atmosphere, energy/mass conservation dictates that this carbon needs to come from somewhere else. Solution: It actually comes from the CO2, via grass growth & the cattle's digestive system. The amount of CO2, averaged over time, therefore cannot increase.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methane naturally turns into CO2 in the atmosphere. Even if it did increase warming more than CO2, once methane emissions reach a steady level, reducing methane emissions won't change a thing, compared to CO2 emissions. This is also similar to meat production emissions. Most of carbon emissions in meat productions are of carbon which was captured from the air as a part of the production cycle, by the plants which fee…

> Methane naturally turns into CO2 in the atmosphere After how long? A half-life of a decade , as I understand it? Not exactly the order of magnitude of luxury time we have to spare. > Even if it did increase warming more than CO2 "Even if it did" is strange wording for an established fact. Do you write "even if the sky was blue"? > once methane emissions reach a steady level, reducing methane emissions won't change…

The narrative is very misleading.

There are two directions to look at it: convincing yourself via a convincing story, or convincing yourself via a convincing calculation.

The story they tell defies basic thermodynamic intuition, and seems to skip over all the parts that would put the narrative in doubt.

The premise is that greenhouse gases absorb black body radiation from the surface.

First of all, greenhouse gas is a bad name, greenhouses warm because of air convection. So the "greenhouse" intuition they try to abuse is misleading.

Secondly, think about this thought experiment: a layer of pure CO2 gas covers the lowest layer of air near the surface. By how much would that get warmer compared to air? The answer is there won't be any difference. That's because the surface and the air near it are at the same temperature, so they emit exactly the same amount of energy. All systems with same temperature are at an equilibrium.

So what can possibly cause warming is only the effect of the difference in temperatures between the CO2 gas and the surface. Which should only be significant in higher altitudes. Which have much less CO2 because it is heavier. And it's also not clear, in this situation, in which direction the weather near the surface will change.

But then you realize there are also effects of increasing methane / CO2 which decrease warming. The most obvious effect is that they have higher heat capacity. Heat capacity goes together with absorption: the absorption is possible only because the molecules have more degrees of freedom to vibrate. So it's usually around the same order of magnitude. And higher heat capacity means faster cooling from convection and it means the air requires more energy to heat up. In fact, you can think of the entire climate change claim as a statement about the entire earth heat capacity.

So I'm entirely unconvinced by the story. But that should've been OK because there are detailed calculations. There are models.

Except these models are dumpster fire. You can download some of them from NASA's website and judge the quality of code for yourself. Old fortran code, all the models copy code from each other, many things which aren't constant physically are constant in the code, functions full of tens of "if else" statements whose physical validity is highly in question.

But those models should've been tested? Except they don't. There's no way to test them. From basic software engineering perspective, it is insane to trust these things to make the kind of trillion dollar decisions they make.

But all models point to climate change! Well they all copy code from each other. But that's not the only problem. They are all thermodynamic simulations which substitute the full state of the system with average states.

In other words, they all, by design, underestimate the entropy of the system. And thermodynamic energy is entropy times temperature, and since they get the energy right (just the sun) you expect them all to get higher temperature. So it is actually expected from all simulations to overestimate warming.

There are also other glaring counter intuitive things about the narrative. Somehow CO2 effects continue to work slowly over decades, and the system doesn't reach an equilibrium with the current levels of CO2 until decades ahead.

This is completely against normal thermodynamic intuition. Meta stable states exist, yes, and there are out of equilibrium systems. But usually the reason for systems not reaching the more stable state, is that their fluctuations are too small. In this case, the fluctuations are much much bigger than the supposed stable state change. We're talking about barely a degree change over decades in systems that fluctuate by several degrees daily. It makes no sense to claim their equilibrium will only be reached in decades while their fluctuation exceeds the difference to equilibrium daily.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not new, but the number has hardly stayed constant, since at some point humanity started mass herding. And, also, we kinda quadrupled the cheptel size in 50 years ? https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production#global-meat-produ... (To be fair, I was expecting more, and I was again astonished by the relative numbers of cattle vs poultry)

We have increased farming, but the American plains were there once home to vast herds of bison. Basically there’s been 30 million large ungulates there for a very long time.

The natural carrying population of bison eating grass is going to be considerably smaller than cows being fed grains produced using artificial fertilizer and major irrigation projects, given antibiotics to grow larger, etc. Part of what makes American beef so carbon intensive is that massive supply chain moving around animals and feed.

Another thing to consider is that American beef cattle are famously rich methane sources due to the artificial diet they’re fed and how early calves are started on corn. Not only are there fewer bison, they would be smaller and eating the food they evolved to eat so each of those animals would be smaller and less gassy.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Methane naturally turns into CO2 in the atmosphere After how long? A half-life of a decade , as I understand it? Not exactly the order of magnitude of luxury time we have to spare. > Even if it did increase warming more than CO2 "Even if it did" is strange wording for an established fact. Do you write "even if the sky was blue"? > once methane emissions reach a steady level, reducing methane emissions won't change…

The narrative is very misleading. There are two directions to look at it: convincing yourself via a convincing story, or convincing yourself via a convincing calculation. The story they tell defies basic thermodynamic intuition, and seems to skip over all the parts that would put the narrative in doubt. The premise is that greenhouse gases absorb black body radiation from the surface. First of all, greenhouse gas is…

Yet the warming continues at exactly the rate we expected since the 1980s, given the rise in co2 we are measuring.

Strange coincidence, or maybe the fact that the code is fortran doesn’t say anything about the accuracy of the math.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Methane naturally turns into CO2 in the atmosphere After how long? A half-life of a decade , as I understand it? Not exactly the order of magnitude of luxury time we have to spare. > Even if it did increase warming more than CO2 "Even if it did" is strange wording for an established fact. Do you write "even if the sky was blue"? > once methane emissions reach a steady level, reducing methane emissions won't change…

The narrative is very misleading. There are two directions to look at it: convincing yourself via a convincing story, or convincing yourself via a convincing calculation. The story they tell defies basic thermodynamic intuition, and seems to skip over all the parts that would put the narrative in doubt. The premise is that greenhouse gases absorb black body radiation from the surface. First of all, greenhouse gas is…

> So what can possibly cause warming is only the effect of the difference in temperatures between the CO2 gas and the surface.

This shows you have a complete misunderstanding of the basic physics going on.

If you have a source of radiation directly hitting a surface, some of the radiation will warm the surface by being absorbed by the surface material, but some of that radiation will be reflected back into space. When you add air on top of such surface, the air will capture both some of the direct radiation, as well as some of the reflected radiation. That's what causes extra warming of the surface compared to the situation without air. Now, air is a mix of several gases... different gases absorb very different amounts of radiation in the sunlight spectrum... what we're saying when we say methane is much more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2, is that methane can absorb much more radiation, which makes it warm up much more than CO2, and that heat stays around until dissipated back into space, which takes quite a long time!

Now that you understand the process at play, I hope it's obvious that your comment above is incredibly wrong on so many levels. IT's ok to be wrong, but I hope you're able to look for what's real and try to understand things better to avoid making such comments that may lead innocent people into a complete misunderstanding of the situation.

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