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Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

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Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#261

Post by aziaziazi »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #200
Eduard wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know; this is Hacker News, hence a strong knowledge and habit bubble of start-up ramen and food delivery cuisine, and a lack of knowledge of all the other choices of food that nature provides, and no experiences in the kitchen besides microwave. Vegan people must belt down their Kwashiorkor; and no idea how any other society in the world of the long and recent past, as well as the present, could struggle through th…

You're looking at extremes, while I'm saying that once you cannot afford meat anymore, you cannot afford vegan alternatives either. If you can't pay 2eur for a piece of pork, you can't afford a 3-pack of bell peppers either. But you can afford a 60c half-kilo pack of pasta.

Replacing pork with bell peppers is a very strange idea. The go-to cheap, healthy and easy alternativeS are found in all sorts of beans meal like read beans and rice

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_beans_and_rice

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#262

Post by bitL »

esperent wrote: post #259
bitL wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mammal milk contains lactoferrin, a very powerful anti-viral/bacterial/fungal molecule that helps fighting invaders in your gut. Lactose-free milk would still work to avoid age-related digestion issues. By skipping it you are likely going to develop gut issues in a few years/decades. See the clinical section here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactoferrin "Lactoferrin in sufficient strength acts on a wide range of hu…

If that's something you feel that you need, you can get it as a supplement. Or also from cow tears, apparently.

Very few vegans know about it, even fewer supplement it.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#263

Post by deif »

Gareth321 wrote: post #216
deif wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what your evidence is. Here's my list of studies of vegetarian and vegan children that disprove your claims: * https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/4/832/htm * https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-021-02753-3 * https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/5/1707/htm * https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918 * https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/grow... * https://anthropogon…

> Not sure what your evidence is. I provided a study in my very first comment. Did you read it? I'll provide it again for you here: ( https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log ...) The study found vegan children to be at risk of lower stature and bone density. Thank you for the studies, I have reviewed them. In turn: 1. Please review Figure 2. Children on vegan and vegetarian diets presented with h…

Very interesting reply.

The summaries of all these studies can effectively be summarised as: if you are raising children on a vegan diet, ensure you supplement and have adequate calory intake. Taking datapoints from figures and graphs without understanding the underlying causes and effects is how we spread misinformation. It's great that studies are measuring this so that we understand better how humans can develop successfully.

An example of this is in study 6 where you stated that vegan children were shorter and weighed less. Whilst true the study also stated "The energy intake of the vegan children was consistently lower than the recommended daily amounts". It then concluded that with a sensibly planned diet vegan children should have no intellectual or physical problems in their development.

So whilst I agree that all the studies did find differences, I disagree that they are somehow proving against my points that a vegan diet in children can be healthy if correctly planned. Due to how the animal agriculture industry creates meat (such as supplementing and fortifying the meat) it is extremely easy to get away with not planning meals with an omnivorous diet.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#264

Post by waihtis »

ben_w wrote: post #54
waihtis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. No-one has yet been able to explain why I should exchange a well-functioning animal-based diet into a vegan one where I need to supplement by default to fulfill human needs. I have respect for those who do it on the basis of animal compassion, but claiming healthiness is obviously a false statement.

Can't speak for you personally, but the average human today has an unhealthy diet since well before the recent popularity surge of vegan-by-choice in the west, so I don't accept "well-functioning animal-based diet" as a general premise even if you personally can make it work.

If you have a bad diet and you remove a significant source of protein and other nutrients from it, how is it a better diet?

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#265

Post by ben_w »

waihtis wrote: post #264
ben_w wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak for you personally, but the average human today has an unhealthy diet since well before the recent popularity surge of vegan-by-choice in the west, so I don't accept "well-functioning animal-based diet" as a general premise even if you personally can make it work.

If you have a bad diet and you remove a significant source of protein and other nutrients from it, how is it a better diet?

I believe the name for what you're doing there is "begging the question".

Vegan diets generally have protein and other nutrients.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#266

Post by selimthegrim »

ornornor wrote: post #208
mg wrote: post #13

Vegans of HN: What do you supplement and why? Personally, I supplement VitaminD3 and Iron. And I make sure to eat salad, carrots and avocado every day. I came up with this regime after getting my blood work done and after exactly tracking all my nutritional values for a while and comparing those to the suggested amounts. I also have a long running project in the "statistics of one" space, where I track a lot of treat…

I supplement D (because lots of people are deficient, vegan or not), B12, and K (helps with B12 or D absorption, forgot which) For iron, I’d suggest switching to cast iron or carbon steel pans. They transfer iron to anything you cook in them and you absorb it. Works the same way as these little iron fishes to drop in the stew some ONGs gave (give?) to third world populations that are having iron deficiencies from not…

Those iron fishes are not actually terribly effective.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#267

Post by selimthegrim »

jiggywiggy wrote: post #148
matsemann wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people (including you it seems) don't really understand the scale at which meat production harm the environment compared to vegetables. Yes, every mass production have problems, but with meat you need multiple times the amount of everything, because you first need to produce the food the cow or whatever eats, and then the meat production. For instance, it's multiple times less co2 impact for me eating an avocado…

You can't honestly claim buying avacado's is better for the planet, it's wreaked social & ecological havoc in multiple south American countries with dried up rivers, gangs and lack of diversification of the income of a country. Next to that it's not always Plants vs meats. In many places only cattle can graze but not much of value can grow. The CO2 issue is really a terrible comparison. Everything cows put out has be…

You’d really rather have them making drugs than avocados?

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#268

Post by waihtis »

ben_w wrote: post #265
waihtis wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a bad diet and you remove a significant source of protein and other nutrients from it, how is it a better diet?

I believe the name for what you're doing there is "begging the question". Vegan diets generally have protein and other nutrients.

to my original point:

> why I should exchange a well-functioning animal-based diet into a vegan one where I need to supplement by default to fulfill human needs

applies also in the protein domain, seeing how vegan protein sources lack or have minimal concentrations of some essential amino acids, for instance

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#269

Post by Gareth321 »

deif wrote: post #263
Gareth321 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure what your evidence is. I provided a study in my very first comment. Did you read it? I'll provide it again for you here: ( https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log ...) The study found vegan children to be at risk of lower stature and bone density. Thank you for the studies, I have reviewed them. In turn: 1. Please review Figure 2. Children on vegan and vegetarian diets presented with h…

Very interesting reply. The summaries of all these studies can effectively be summarised as: if you are raising children on a vegan diet, ensure you supplement and have adequate calory intake. Taking datapoints from figures and graphs without understanding the underlying causes and effects is how we spread misinformation. It's great that studies are measuring this so that we understand better how humans can develop s…

I agree with your summary. Vegan diets don't have to result in poorer nutrition. They're just much harder to configure and administer, and most people don't optimise them well, especially for children. This is the difference between what ought to be, and what is. The human or compliance factor in diets is often much more important than the diet itself. If compliance is low, it doesn't matter how healthy the diet is.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#270

Post by ornornor »

selimthegrim wrote: post #266
ornornor wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I supplement D (because lots of people are deficient, vegan or not), B12, and K (helps with B12 or D absorption, forgot which) For iron, I’d suggest switching to cast iron or carbon steel pans. They transfer iron to anything you cook in them and you absorb it. Works the same way as these little iron fishes to drop in the stew some ONGs gave (give?) to third world populations that are having iron deficiencies from not…

Those iron fishes are not actually terribly effective.

Maybe if used once rather than for every meal.

In any case, cooking every lunch and dinner on cast iron or high carbon steel pans solves the iron deficiency for us. Ask an MD to see if it’s an avenue for you too because the iron supplement pills or IVs are made out of animal blood afaik which kinda defeat the purpose of not killing animals.

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