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iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

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Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#171

Post by vladvasiliu »

tpxl wrote: post #145
hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

As far as I'm concerned if you 'bought' something, it should be yours to do as you please, including reselling and destroying it. If you didn't buy something, but rented it - for example a game on Steam or Epic Games store - then it should damned say so. It's a straight up lie to say you purchased something if you didn't.

I don't think those alternatives are the right ones.

You can sell your iphone without any issue, there are plenty of stores around me offering to buy used models to resell. I'm actually contemplating buying a used model. Can't do that with steam games.

I'm also pretty confident that if apple and their services disappeared tomorrow, my iphone would keep on working just like it does today. Sure, no more updates, no more new apps, it would be frozen in the state it's in.

Therefore, I think the question is whether an iphone is a "general computing device", or "an appliance". I can see the arguments for both, even though I tend to treat mine as the latter.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#172

Post by hooby »

tpxl wrote: post #145
hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

As far as I'm concerned if you 'bought' something, it should be yours to do as you please, including reselling and destroying it. If you didn't buy something, but rented it - for example a game on Steam or Epic Games store - then it should damned say so. It's a straight up lie to say you purchased something if you didn't.

I agree. Anyone should be allowed to repair, tinker with and modify anything they own - at their own risk.

When it comes to software, that's only possible to do with open source. With closed source you're only ever buying a perpetual usage license. (Unless you are a company buying out another company or it's assets, that is).

It's complicated, because software and digital data is inherently different from physical goods - and all those concepts of "selling" a "copy" are just rather ramshackle attempts at making digital goods compatible with laws designed for physical goods.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#173

Post by pmontra »

kaba0 wrote: post #85
edandersen wrote: post #76

I wonder if they considered an "iPhone Europe Edition" - USB-C, side loading, physical SIM cards. Sounds like a good phone!

What’s good about physical SIMs? I do like apple for daring to improve the status quo there, so I want my European Edition with only e-simsz

The last time I dropped my phone and broke its screen I took out the SIM and left the phone in a repair shop. I went home, put the SIM in an old phone. If the broken phone had an eSIM, would I been able to use the old one as a backup? Maybe by going to a shop and askig for a physical SIM. That would be slower and less convenient. A physical SIM fits in a Samsung A40 which is probably the smaller and lighter Android phone available today and in much smaller phones of the past so it's definitely not a burden.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#174

Post by brenns10 »

FriedPickles wrote: post #148

As the developer of a subscription app, if unfettered side-loading is allowed I'd be worried about cracked versions of my app being distributed. We've done everything in the client for privacy and reliability, but the obvious countermeasure would be to move functionality over to a backend. This would be history echoing the transition from boxed software to SaaS.

Except, side-loading has already existed on Android for... a long time. I regularly install from F-Droid, and it's totally possible to download an .apk from the Internet and install it. If your client was getting "cracked" it could already have been happening on Android for years (assuming you have an Android app). See also: Youtube vanced.

So really what you're saying in this comment is that you've written your backend APIs with the assumption that the only user is a benevolent app which you wrote. If it's possible for somebody to take your app and tweak it to circumvent your subscription's restrictions, then what prevents a person from hooking up their phone to a development HTTPS proxy, intercepting the API requests, and making their own cracked client without side-loading at all?

Side-loading is NOT a problem for subscription apps done properly, and it's NOT a problem for privacy or security, so long as the side-loading implementation is done responsibly.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#175

Post by hayst4ck »

hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

While that might be the choice we're making and it seems like the first is obviously what owning a device should be like.

What if I actually want to pay a fee to a tightly controlled service? Like what if I do the math and determine that that benefits me more than actually owning the device? Should a regulatory agency be able to come in and tell this tightly controlled service they aren't doing it right when I am a happy customer?

> when discussing what rights a person should get for a piece of hardware they bought.

You already pre-decided that the first answer is correct without actually asking if anyone prefers the second.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#177

Post by realusername »

FriedPickles wrote: post #148

As the developer of a subscription app, if unfettered side-loading is allowed I'd be worried about cracked versions of my app being distributed. We've done everything in the client for privacy and reliability, but the obvious countermeasure would be to move functionality over to a backend. This would be history echoing the transition from boxed software to SaaS.

No study managed to prove a loss of revenue with piracy, you are not going to be the first app in the world to experience it.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#178

Post by Xylakant »

supertrope wrote: post #132
geocar wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better: it’s a menu option. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 eSIMs also have the advantage of an activation card can be sent instantly from almost anywhere (it’s a QR code) which is great if your phone (and physical sim) are lost or damaged.

In theory eSIM allows for self service without going to a store or waiting for shipping. In practice you might be on hold with your phone company for an hour. Some USA MVNOs don’t support eSIM.

As the person managing phone contracts in our company, I really like that part of eSIMs. I can mail a phone or have the employee purchase one and then mail my providers support and I‘m all set. About one hour later, the phone will have connectivity. If you‘re using an MDM solution that supports it, you can even manage the assigned eSIMs there.

Now, we‘re on a business contract and we have a responsive team on the other side, so the comfort of this hinges on the provider obviously.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#179

Post by bluesign »

mrtksn wrote: post #160
FriedPickles wrote: post #148

As the developer of a subscription app, if unfettered side-loading is allowed I'd be worried about cracked versions of my app being distributed. We've done everything in the client for privacy and reliability, but the obvious countermeasure would be to move functionality over to a backend. This would be history echoing the transition from boxed software to SaaS.

Isn’t it a bit like the movies and music? Those who will steal will steal and those who will pay will pay anyway. There are great pirate movie websites where you can watch all the movies at about the same user experience or even better but Netflix etc are doing just fine. Piracy isn’t what it used to be but I do enjoy these sites. The real problem is the subscription fatigue and fragmentation. I won’t subscribe to al…

It is same if you have big audience, it is very different if you are developing for a niche market.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#180

Post by jpalomaki »

I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies (from my consumer point of view).

Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. The main mechanism is to kick apps out from Apps store if they don't play by the rules.

I'm worried that side loading will be a step back here. Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and distribute it through other ways. With their strong position I don't have much choice - it's not like there would be five competing apps serving the same purpose (connecting to the people and communities on Facebook).

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