Live data from Hacker News

The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

win-vector.com

101–110 of 148 posts

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$ yes "a cat is an animal" Does `yes` also have "knowledge"?

no, but `$ yes "a cat is an animal"` does (if you know how to interpret it)

If it requires interpretation, than it is the "yes+human" system that has the knowledge.

What really happened here is that a human wrote down, "a cat is an animal," and then another human read it, understood it, and believed it. And so the knowledge moved from one human to another. `yes` was only a conduit for that information to travel through.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#102

>>> Build a system that solves problems, but with an important user-facing control. ... >>> Convince the user that it is their job to find a instantiation or setting of this control to make the system work for their tasks. By golly, you just described playing the cello.

I'm afraid to ask, but what's the lore behind the cello? I'm completely clueless about music, sadly enough.

Having seen my daughter progress from a 4 year old beginner on the cello to eventually playing in a state orchestra and now teaching it, I guess my take is that fundamentally it is a beautiful instrument. It is designed to resonate close to the human voice. But like the voice, there is an infinite amount of variation - on where to press the fingerboard, how to move the bow. Just like learning to speak and sing with articulation takes years of experience. She became extremely proficient, but just giving her a well made cello didn't achieve anything much. It was only with many hours of coaching and practice refining the input based on the output.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#103
post #79

In my opinion it's a weak take that only got so upvoted and commented on hacker news because it has the existential and universal logical quantifier symbols in the title and also because it uses the chiasmus rhetoric device both in the title and at the end of the article. The argument is that several technologies don't work 'out of the box' and you have to tweak their settings for each problem that you face, and that…

NB: This isn't an example of chiasmus.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's just a very fancy Markov chain Could you provide an argument for why an LLM is a fancy markov chain that does not apply equally well to a human?

Good point. While it seems obvious to me that LLMs can never be anything more than fancy Markov chains, in my experience it seems the majority of human "logic" does not operate much differently. Very rare to encounter someone who is able to think or speak critically. Most regurgitate canned responses based on keywords.

I don't just mean the dumb ones. Einstein was just as much a markov chain as GPT-2 is. The term is utterly useless in this context.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Significantly economically impactful in some cases- obvious examples of call centers and first-line customer support. Is it that obvious? Yesterday I had a trivial but uncommon issue with my pharmacy. I reached out to them online - their chatbot was the only channel available. I tried, over the course of 20 minutes and 3 restarted sessions, to communicate an issue that a human would have been able to respond to in…

Do you have any reason to believe that the Chatbot was GPT3.5 or GPT4 based?

I have seen plenty of chatbots used by my IT company and 3rd party suppliers I deal with. They really just turn what used to be phone tree to something text based. Pretty basic keyword search and recipes from my experience - that I usually like to escape to a human as soon as I can. I welcome a proper conversational AI chatbot that actually gets stuff done.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#106
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are operating with a different definition of "knowledge" that the parent does.

Knowledge is awareness of information. "Awareness" is a quagmire because a lot of people believe that 'true' awareness requires possessing a sort of soul which machines can't possess. I think the important part is information, the matter of 'awareness' can simply be ignored as a philosophical/religious disagreement which will never be resolved. What's important is: Does the system contain information? Can it reliably…

"Awareness of information" describes belief. Knowledge is justified, true belief (you can believe things you don't actually know/don't have justification for, and you can be made aware of information you don't believe). If you're dismissive of philosophy and then ask epistemological questions, you'll miss out on a lot of good pondering people have done on the subject, and end up reinventing some of it without encountering the criticism of those ideas.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#107
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's just a very fancy Markov chain Could you provide an argument for why an LLM is a fancy markov chain that does not apply equally well to a human?

I'm gonna respond to you, because i think you like GPT4 and i do too (even if the only use i trust for now is "Resume me this **lot of text/research article** in less than 200 words", which is already great for a knowledge hoarder like me) You can think against yourself, a LLM have troubles doing so. Also, they fail spectacularly when asked to do real-life operation: "I have to buy two bagettes at one euros, then fiv…

I don't understand, GPT-4 answers this very easily:

> To calculate the total cost, first find the cost for each item:

> Two baguettes at 1 euro each: 2 * 1 = 2 euros

> Five chocolatines at 1.40 euros each: 5 * 1.40 = 7 euros

> Five croissants at 1.20 euros each: 5 * 1.20 = 6 euros

> Five raisin breads at 1.60 euros each: 5 * 1.60 = 8 euros

> Now, add up the cost of each item:

> 2 euros (baguettes) + 7 euros (chocolatines) + 6 euros (croissants) + 8 euros (raisin breads) = 23 euros

> You should take 23 euros with you to purchase all the items.

Are you sure you're using GPT-4 and not 3.5? GPT-4 is incomparably more competent compared to GPT-3.5 on logical tasks like this (trust me, I've had it solve much more complicated questions than this), and you aren't using GPT-4 on chat.openai.com unless you're paying for it and deliberately picking it when creating a new chat.

Edit: Here's an example of a more complicated question that GPT-4 answered correctly on the first try: https://i.imgur.com/JMC7jsw.png

Funnily enough, this was also a problem that a friend posed to me while trying to challenge the reasoning ability of GPT-4. As you can see (cross-reference it if you like), it nailed the answer.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#108
post #81
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very easy to measure costs associated with a customer. It is nearly impossible to measure the customers lost. And you may never return, which they’ll never know.

Unless all pharmacies go to automation, in which you're screwed. And don't think it can't happen. Consolidation in to just a few companies us happening in huge numbers of industries.

That’s the killer, and it gets bad really fast once an industry “decides” on something. And people simply fall through the cracks.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#109
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Microsoft Research "Sparks of AGI" paper spends 154 pages describing behaviors of GPT-4 that are inconsistent with the understanding of it being a "fancy Markov chain": https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.12712 I expect that the reason people are constantly arguing with you is that your analysis does not explain some easily testable experiences, such as why GPT-4 has the ability to explain what some non-trivial and unique…

> trivial and unique Python programs would output if they were run, despite GPT-4 not having access to a Python interpreter itself Trivially explained as "even a broken clock is right twice a day." I skimmed the paper, as it was linked here on HN iirc. First, it was published by Microsoft, a company that absolutely has a horse in this race (what were they supposed to say? "The AI bot our search engine uses is dumb?")…

You're one of the people that will be yelling to everyone else in a potential future "We're only seemingly oppressed! It's just a parlor trick that they've turned most of humanity into paperclips, sci-fi authors wrote about this already!"

I don't think GPT-4 is magic, but unless the unicorn is literally an exact replica of something from it's training set, it clearly has "knowledge", and it's weird that you'd try to deny that.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#110

If I understand correctly, the meat of the argument is "that is a system for every (∀) task, there exists (∃) a setting that gives the correct answer for that one task." My understanding of this (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the scam is convincing users that GPT-X can do anything with say, the correct prompts. This argument misses the mark for me. It's not that it solves all the problems, it's that the problems i…

The argument is more nuanced. Importantly, the article is not making a judgement on the value of GPT, generally (at least not explicitly). It is arguing against one specific narrative. That narrative goes like this: Step 1: give me a specific task T from a class of tasks C. Step 2: I’ll show you that I can formulate a prompt to solve task T. Step 3: therefore, if you engineer prompts well enough, you can find a singl…

More formally, the system specifies a set S of predicates that it can evaluate based on configurations (prompts etc) applied to the general method.

You have a particular predicate p that you want to evaluate, in some larger space of “appropriate” predicates P, then usually machine learning gives you some claim that,

    ∀p in P. ∃s in S. p(x) → s(x)
Call this last bit “weak prediction,” p is not easily computable or else you would not use machine learning but machine learning can compute any s in S and if we find this s then we can use s(x) as evidence that p(x) by Bayes theorem or so. Machine learning has never affirmed strong prediction, in particular there have always been ways to maliciously modify; you look at the details of the machine s, you have s(x,y) “I classify an x as a y” and s(x + Δx, y'), “I classify an x + Δx as a completely different y',” where humans literally cannot tell the difference between x and x + Δx, the alterations are in the “noise” of the data.

The “scam” is that you then tell people to hand calculate a subset X ⊆ p, so p(x) for any x in it, and then sell this as,

    ∃s in S. ∀x in X. s(x)
What's the problem? I think the claim hints that there are a few:

1. Selection bias in claimed accuracy. You generate candidates s¹, s², s³, ... and analyze their accuracy over X to pick one, say the one that gets 96% of X right. The accuracy of the selected solution sⁿ is not 96%, that's lying to yourself. The proper way to use this is to partition X into X¹ + X², use data X¹ to select sⁿ, then evaluate its actual accuracy on X². (This is how I originally read the article.) In particular there is a loss of p(x) from the right hand side of the new expression, suggesting “alignment” lapses, e.g. the machine learning algorithm that appeared to “learn” to identify tanks but actually was identifying clouds in the sky.

2. Selection bias in terms of problems solved, researchers generate problems p¹, p², p³ ... in P and we hear about pⁿ having solution sⁿ with 99% accuracy, this gives us an unrepresentative idea of what the success rates look like in P overall. (This is how I read your take, and meshes better with the final comments in the post.)

3. This broader context looks suspiciously like a problem where you can drive the false positive rate arbitrarily low by raising the false negative rate arbitrarily high, which roughly might explain the tendency of ChatGPT et al. to hallucinate.

Post reply on HN