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The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

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Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#91

Post by ftxbro »

version_five wrote: post #85
ftxbro wrote: post #79

In my opinion it's a weak take that only got so upvoted and commented on hacker news because it has the existential and universal logical quantifier symbols in the title and also because it uses the chiasmus rhetoric device both in the title and at the end of the article. The argument is that several technologies don't work 'out of the box' and you have to tweak their settings for each problem that you face, and that…

I'm happy to have learned about the chiasmus thing, I hadn't seen that before. In general, better writing, including the use of rhetorical devices, is what gets attention. It's better than some clickbait. Personally I though the use of symbols was a distraction (spurred some useless comments) but maybe that did attract people. My take is that the argument boils down to saying that overfitting is a thing in LLMs too,…

> "the use of rhetorical devices, is what gets attention. It's better than some clickbait."

I feel like 'using rhetorical devices to get attention' is a pretty good definition of clickbait.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#92

Post by mardifoufs »

analog31 wrote: post #49

>>> Build a system that solves problems, but with an important user-facing control. ... >>> Convince the user that it is their job to find a instantiation or setting of this control to make the system work for their tasks. By golly, you just described playing the cello.

I'm afraid to ask, but what's the lore behind the cello? I'm completely clueless about music, sadly enough.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#93

Post by narag »

CapsAdmin wrote: post #82

Are general purpose tools scams? An operating system does many things. A general purpose language when contrasted with a domain specific language. A human programmer thinking that they're a wizard that can solve all problems. However I get the sentiment I think, it's a little bit like snake oil and alternative medicine. They promise to solve all your problems. What's interesting to think about is who it is to "blame"…

Are general purpose tools scams?

No. But I'm old enough to remember how the people that bought the first IBM PCs complained that the computers were useless. Of course they needed much more than the very expensive machines: software, training, peripherals, backups...

They were scammed by the vendors, even if the product was not a scam.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#94

Post by itsthecourier »

analog31 wrote: post #49

>>> Build a system that solves problems, but with an important user-facing control. ... >>> Convince the user that it is their job to find a instantiation or setting of this control to make the system work for their tasks. By golly, you just described playing the cello.

I swear to God, I have suffered more playing cello than dealing with pointers in C

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#95

Post by version_five »

ftxbro wrote: post #91
version_five wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm happy to have learned about the chiasmus thing, I hadn't seen that before. In general, better writing, including the use of rhetorical devices, is what gets attention. It's better than some clickbait. Personally I though the use of symbols was a distraction (spurred some useless comments) but maybe that did attract people. My take is that the argument boils down to saying that overfitting is a thing in LLMs too,…

> "the use of rhetorical devices, is what gets attention. It's better than some clickbait." I feel like 'using rhetorical devices to get attention' is a pretty good definition of clickbait.

In a vacuum yes, but the rhetorical device in question isn't really a standard clickbaity one is it, it's more literary. It's also logical for good writing to attract more views.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#96

Post by orwin »

sebzim4500 wrote: post #51
dvt wrote: post #9

I can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time: on one hand, yes, there's certainly a lot of Kool-Aid being drank by the AI folks. Even on HN, I constantly argue with people that genuinely think LLMs are some kind of magical black box that contain "knowledge" or "intelligence" or "meaning" when in reality, it's just a very fancy Markov chain. And on the other hand, I think that language interfaces are probably the n…

>it's just a very fancy Markov chain Could you provide an argument for why an LLM is a fancy markov chain that does not apply equally well to a human?

I'm gonna respond to you, because i think you like GPT4 and i do too (even if the only use i trust for now is "Resume me this **lot of text/research article** in less than 200 words", which is already great for a knowledge hoarder like me)

You can think against yourself, a LLM have troubles doing so. Also, they fail spectacularly when asked to do real-life operation: "I have to buy two bagettes at one euros, then five chocolatine, croissants and raisin bread at 1.40, 1.20 and 1.60 respectively, how much should i take with me?" when in my head, i just know it'll be between 20 and 25 in seconds (and in fact it's 23, i took random numbers but they are quite easy to add).

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#97

Post by version_five »

CapsAdmin wrote: post #82

Are general purpose tools scams? An operating system does many things. A general purpose language when contrasted with a domain specific language. A human programmer thinking that they're a wizard that can solve all problems. However I get the sentiment I think, it's a little bit like snake oil and alternative medicine. They promise to solve all your problems. What's interesting to think about is who it is to "blame"…

> Are general purpose tools scams?

No code / low code might be a good analogy here

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#98

Post by anonymous_sorry »

jameshart wrote: post #61
justeleblanc wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure you should read "for every task there exists a setting".

But what's the inverse?

Informally, "this thing can solve all your problems" vs "for each of your problems there is a thing that can solve it".

I suppose the argument is that LLMs are not a solution to any problem, they are a complex tool which might be used to find a solution, with non-zero effort.

As an example of non-zero effort: I spent a fair amount of time the other day trying to get chatGPT to advise how to effectively deal with a grey squirrel problem. It was more interested in telling me that squirrels should be treated humanely, to the extent that it suggested doing things that are illegal in my country (releasing a captured grey squirrel). I asked why and it told me all animals had a right to dignity and respect. I couldn't resist getting side tracked by this. After some light trolling I asked it about how it had come to hold these values and it told me that as an LLM it didn't have values, but then restated its position anyway.

In the end I got some more sense out of it with a new prompt where I specifically said I was interested in effective, legal methods of control without any moralising.

If you're concerned, I haven't killed any squirrels and almost certainly won't.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#99

Post by mcv »

mardifoufs wrote: post #92
analog31 wrote: post #49

>>> Build a system that solves problems, but with an important user-facing control. ... >>> Convince the user that it is their job to find a instantiation or setting of this control to make the system work for their tasks. By golly, you just described playing the cello.

I'm afraid to ask, but what's the lore behind the cello? I'm completely clueless about music, sadly enough.

Fretless string instruments like the cello and the violin are notoriously hard to even get a good note out of. Beginners just learning to play tend to produce a sound not unlike a cat being strangled.

Playing a cello takes real skill. Even producing a single good note takes practice. Whereas on a piano, producing a good note is trivial. The skill comes in playing a complex requiring 10 fingers.

So I guess the author of the article expected these new AI systems to be more like a piano, but ue got a cello instead.

Re: The Sell ∀ ∃ as ∃ ∀ Scam

#100

Post by [deleted] »

itsthecourier wrote: post #94
analog31 wrote: post #49

>>> Build a system that solves problems, but with an important user-facing control. ... >>> Convince the user that it is their job to find a instantiation or setting of this control to make the system work for their tasks. By golly, you just described playing the cello.

I swear to God, I have suffered more playing cello than dealing with pointers in C

[deleted]
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