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The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

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Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#411

Post by fsflover »

gloria_mundi wrote: post #378
clnq wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my mind, another problem is the one-sidedness of this effort. Why is someone privileged to scan my data but I can’t write a scanner and parse theirs? There seems to be a fundamental injustice here. Completely ignoring privacy as a concept for a moment, a fair trade should be like for like, value for value.

That's just how government works in general though. [0] "Why is someone privileged to arrest me but I can't keep them locked up in my house?" [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

Monopoly on violence is fine, but in return the government should be 100% transparent, in order not to abuse this monopoly.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#412

Post by JoshTriplett »

autoexec wrote: post #368
sirmarksalot wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a straw man. I don't think any politician would ever suggest such a thing at face value unless couched in some other argument. For example, after 9/11 a politician would have said, "I respect your need for privacy, but we live in extraordinary times, and we need to temporarily lift the restrictions on our agencies to effectively combat an imminent threat." The real argument being made isn't that we sh…

I think the US government has debunked that for us, repeatedly and thoroughly. If this is really their argument they've already lost.

> If this is really their argument they've already lost.

This would only be true if government were in fact answerable to people. It isn't, and hasn't been for a long time, if it ever was. Legislators decide what they want to vote for, and then decide how to brush off people who tell them anything they don't want to hear.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#413

Post by justinclift »

autoexec wrote: post #367
akomtu wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imho, sponsors of this bill want to collect dossiers and use them to blackmail opponents in the future. For example, you want to do something unpopular and a noisy council member opposes your plan. You reach to the "official and confidential" box, find there a personal file on that politician, conveniently created by the AI-scanner, share your discoveries with him and suddenly he changes his mind.

> Imho, sponsors of this bill want to collect dossiers and use them to blackmail opponents in the future. I wonder how it is that the NSA hasn't already enabled that. One of my early concerns with government spying is that we'd up with some kind of NeoMcCarthyism on crack where someone in power would be able to discredit any inconvenient person or even identify and eliminate the career of a potential opponent before…

> I wonder how it is that the NSA hasn't already enabled that.

It seems pretty weird to assume it's not already done and in use by select people or groups in the NSA already. They literally have the ability, they're smart enough to pick their targets carefully, and there's plenty of evidence of their oversight being useless.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#415

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

colinsane wrote: post #287
pksebben wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone with an opinion in this thread ought to do this. It really doesn't take any time at all.

some countries have a public policy of “don’t negotiate with terrorists”. it’s so tempting for me to adopt the same policy in my own life. if a burglar showed up at my door demanding entry, i wouldn’t debate them about why it’s morally preferable that they don’t enter against my will. but when it’s some politician demanding entry, suddenly everyone thinks i ought to engage in that debate. no. better to dispel the myt…

Sounds like you dont vote, too.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#416

Post by pcthrowaway »

yakubin wrote: post #405
betaby wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I EU and Canada such laws are pushed by relatively yang folks as well, like ones in their 40s.

It’s depressing that in modern times people in their 40s are considered young. In 1776 Alexander Hamilton was 21, Burr was 20, Thomas Jefferson was 33, Madison was 25, and Monroe was 18.

Why is that depressing? People live longer now.

Though I guess it's depressing that people in their 20s and 30s can't afford kids now.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#417

Post by atemerev »

Because most “democratic” countries are not really democratic. Elected representatives can and will act against the interests of the public they represent.

While here in Switzerland we have direct democracy, where such decisions have to be confirmed by national referendums (we have several each year), and most certainly this one would not be approved.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#418

Post by genocidicbunny »

iknowstuff wrote: post #370
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes from not knowing what organizations are likely to do with it. Would they be okay with the data being used to overcharge them whenever they're in a hurry because the organization knows when they don't have time to comparison shop? How about maximizing their tax burden by using the data to calculate the highest tax rates each area would tolerate before moving or changing their vote? Suppose the government fa…

Exactly, those are far more convincing arguments than "well let me see your phone then".

The two arguments aren't mutually exclusive. The shock value of 'let me see your phone then' can lead into the greater discussion that AnthonyMouse is presenting. The emotional hook can often be just as useful as the logical argument, especially when dealing with someone who didn't really reason themselves into a given position in the first place.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#419

Post by jiggawatts »

BizarroLand wrote: post #317
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "why do you have the right to know?" is a decent answer. "What level of trust do you think you've earned?" "What do you want to do with all this information?" "How will this make things better?' "Don't you have more important things to spend time and money on?" "Is this really the best thing the government should be working on right now?" "How does this help any of society's ills?" "Will taxes need to be incr…

"IT PROTECTS THE CHILDREN!" they'll scream, while using it to take more power away from society and concentrate it into their own hands. Surveillance isn't some harmless thing, because you can tell a million lies with a drop of the truth in them for any reason you want. Imagine you get established in life and decide to run for local politics only to have the fact that you've gone to Vegas 4 times in your life somehow…

Ah yes, “protecting the children”. Meanwhile, some of the most paranoid IT data security I’ve seen was at a department of education.

You see, just statistically speaking, they have pedophiles on staff, staff with potential data access. They have ex husbands that want to abduct their kid after the messy divorce where the wife had to get a new identity, but good luck fleeing from your husband who has DB access at the DoE.

The real world is messy and filled with bad actors in positions of power and access to data that enables their abuse.

The less data there is, the less they can abuse it.

Almost like… guns. The less guns are out there… oh. Oh…

You guys in the States are screwed. I’m sorry for you all.

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