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The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

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Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#331

Post by teddyh »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #7

A reminder that "you have nothing to hide" argument is a fallacy because people abuse their power: Some first hits as reminders of places where their powers are abused [1]: "NSA staff used spy tools on spouses, ex-lovers: watchdog" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog... [2]: https://reason.com/2022/07/26/police-can-access-your-ring-ca... [3]: https://reason.com/2021/04/26/warrantless-border-s…

Bruce Schneier put it quite succinctly in his article The Eternal Value of Privacy (from 2006):

Some clever answers: “If I'm not doing anything wrong, then you have no cause to watch me.” “Because the government gets to define what's wrong, and they keep changing the definition.” “Because you might do something wrong with my information.” My problem with quips like these – as right as they are – is that they accept the premise that privacy is about hiding a wrong. It's not. Privacy is an inherent human right, and a requirement for maintaining the human condition with dignity and respect.

— https://www.wired.com/2006/05/the-eternal-value-of-privacy/

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#332

Post by tialaramex »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #310
louloulou wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age. Privacy is not secrecy. A private matter is something one doesn't want the whole world to know, but a secret matter is something one doesn't want anybody to know. Privacy is the power to selectively reveal oneself to the world." -- excerpt from A Cypherpunk's Manifesto, Eric Hughes, March 9, 1993

By that definition I would say secrecy is also necessary for an open society. For example my bank password is something I don’t want anyone to know.

In practice your bank password is indeed a secret, and that's a bad thing, because that above definition is wrong, which is why I prefer to think about the U2 lyric (from "The Fly"):

"They say a Secret is something you tell one other person, so I'm telling you, child".

The bank knows your password. Which means they (or more precisely their agents, employees, etc.) can lose it yet they'll probably try to blame you.

It is possible to not have this happen via what's called an Augmented PAKE - the bank wouldn't know your password, but they'd be able to check you still remembered it - however almost certainly none of the systems you use today do this.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#333

Post by boneitis »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #306
sporkl wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried using this in an argument and gotten a response along the lines of "I don't mind if people watch me poop."

Well I'd say they're full of shit, haha. Most people have something they care about; them refuting a specific case doesn't refute the general concept. They're either arguing in bad faith or are not very good at thinking logically. If they truly have no ethical or moral boundaries, then they are probably deviant enough that they won't be able to get into a position to set much policy, anyways, by definition of their l…

Right. I don't "mind" being seen pooping, per se.

You go ahead and zen out and, in turn, take those things with grace by going along with it when someone raises a fuss ("oh, I am soooo humiliated! :)"). Or if you're of another archetype, you'll find witty ways to playfully snap back and turn it around on people trying to clown on you (alas, I'm not of this type/talent). Moreover, there are the countless, other not-uncommon approaches that often lead to escalation/hostility/violence.

Then it becomes a drag (and where the issue lies) when it really catches on in wildfire manner, to where it will have practically problematic effects on you personally or professionally, not unlike the lie that makes it halfway 'round the world before the truth can put its pants on.

As far as I see it, all of that is what is trying to be highlighted with the pooping witness analogy. Of course, that should probably be underscored when presenting it.

You'll probably still get a "yeah, that's fine" or "I don't care what anyone else thinks" after you elaborate. And tons of other cans of worms can reasonably be opened as topical offshoots; I'm just trying to concur that the "I don't mind" response doesn't really feel like a response.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#334

Post by sirmarksalot »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #7

A reminder that "you have nothing to hide" argument is a fallacy because people abuse their power: Some first hits as reminders of places where their powers are abused [1]: "NSA staff used spy tools on spouses, ex-lovers: watchdog" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog... [2]: https://reason.com/2022/07/26/police-can-access-your-ring-ca... [3]: https://reason.com/2021/04/26/warrantless-border-s…

I think this is a straw man. I don't think any politician would ever suggest such a thing at face value unless couched in some other argument. For example, after 9/11 a politician would have said, "I respect your need for privacy, but we live in extraordinary times, and we need to temporarily lift the restrictions on our agencies to effectively combat an imminent threat."

The real argument being made isn't that we should give all our secrets to the government, but that we should trust that the government will comply with our 4th Amendment protections and avoid gathering this data without a valid warrant issued by an impartial judge. If you're reading this, I'm guessing that like me, you don't believe a word of that. But that's the argument that's being made, and that's what needs to be debunked loudly and publicly.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#335

Post by BLKNSLVR »

mnky9800n wrote: post #326
BizarroLand wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"IT PROTECTS THE CHILDREN!" they'll scream, while using it to take more power away from society and concentrate it into their own hands. Surveillance isn't some harmless thing, because you can tell a million lies with a drop of the truth in them for any reason you want. Imagine you get established in life and decide to run for local politics only to have the fact that you've gone to Vegas 4 times in your life somehow…

And all these stories will be generated about you by AI bot farms paid for by your opposition

"how do you ensure trust in the providence of the information being stored? - with no direct link to physical proof of an individual typing that message or URL or uploading / downloading that picture at that time, or even necessarily that the individuals device was used to perform the action, what value is there in the data?"

The argument above could really only be used if a case came to court and evidence providence needed to be questioned.

This argument is a poor one in the face of politics or lawyers because the ambiguity is such that it becomes a case of "who do you believe is telling the truth" because a jury is a group of humans, and our nature appears to be to err on the side of guilt over innocence. Hence accusation=at least guilty of "something". It therefore works in favour of the power status quo.

I have some baggage relating to this.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#336

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS »

BizarroLand wrote: post #317
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "why do you have the right to know?" is a decent answer. "What level of trust do you think you've earned?" "What do you want to do with all this information?" "How will this make things better?' "Don't you have more important things to spend time and money on?" "Is this really the best thing the government should be working on right now?" "How does this help any of society's ills?" "Will taxes need to be incr…

"IT PROTECTS THE CHILDREN!" they'll scream, while using it to take more power away from society and concentrate it into their own hands. Surveillance isn't some harmless thing, because you can tell a million lies with a drop of the truth in them for any reason you want. Imagine you get established in life and decide to run for local politics only to have the fact that you've gone to Vegas 4 times in your life somehow…

[flagged]

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#337

Post by andrekandre »

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #336
BizarroLand wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"IT PROTECTS THE CHILDREN!" they'll scream, while using it to take more power away from society and concentrate it into their own hands. Surveillance isn't some harmless thing, because you can tell a million lies with a drop of the truth in them for any reason you want. Imagine you get established in life and decide to run for local politics only to have the fact that you've gone to Vegas 4 times in your life somehow…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#338

Post by mrawesome8 »

The EARN IT Act threatens the privacy of all internet users by allowing for suspicionless scans of online messages, photos, and hosted files.

This law creates an unelected government commission stacked with law enforcement personnel that can dictate "best practices" for internet websites and apps.

The EARN IT Act removes legal protections for users and website owners and allows state legislatures to encourage civil lawsuits and prosecutions against those who don’t follow the government’s “best practices.”

Websites and apps that use end-to-end encryption to protect user privacy will be pressured to remove or compromise the security of their services or face prosecutions and lawsuits.

This law falsely assumes that all internet users should be under suspicion for child abuse, treating us all like we're in a permanent criminal lineup.

The available evidence shows that scanning software designed to detect Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM) is far from perfect and often results in false accusations.

The EARN IT Act threatens to export these false accusations to vulnerable communities around the world, where they can be wielded by police forces with even less accountability than those in the United States.

The EARN IT Act leaves room for client-side scanning, violating user privacy by sending data to law enforcement straight from user devices.

Everyone has a right to privacy, even if they have nothing to hide. Just like we close the door when we use the bathroom, we should be able to keep our online conversations and information private. It is a fundamental right that allows individuals to have control over their personal information and to be free from unwarranted surveillance. Without privacy, people can be vulnerable to all sorts of abuse, including identity theft, stalking, and harassment.

The act then removes nearly 30-year-old legal protections for users and website owners. If EARN IT passes, we’re likely to see state lawmakers step in and mandate scanning of messages and other files.

The proposed law has been defeated twice before but needs digital rights supporters to speak up and stop it from passing again. We need to support a free, secure, and private internet.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#339

Post by akomtu »

clnq wrote: post #325
maerF0x0 wrote: post #7

A reminder that "you have nothing to hide" argument is a fallacy because people abuse their power: Some first hits as reminders of places where their powers are abused [1]: "NSA staff used spy tools on spouses, ex-lovers: watchdog" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog... [2]: https://reason.com/2022/07/26/police-can-access-your-ring-ca... [3]: https://reason.com/2021/04/26/warrantless-border-s…

To my mind, another problem is the one-sidedness of this effort. Why is someone privileged to scan my data but I can’t write a scanner and parse theirs? There seems to be a fundamental injustice here. Completely ignoring privacy as a concept for a moment, a fair trade should be like for like, value for value.

Imho, sponsors of this bill want to collect dossiers and use them to blackmail opponents in the future. For example, you want to do something unpopular and a noisy council member opposes your plan. You reach to the "official and confidential" box, find there a personal file on that politician, conveniently created by the AI-scanner, share your discoveries with him and suddenly he changes his mind.

Re: The EARN IT bill is back, seeking to scan our messages and photos

#340

Post by andrekandre »

whydoyoucare wrote: post #318
DocTomoe wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, politics understands that alright, don't you worry about that. Politicians are the enemies of privacy for the masses, because a transparent population is a population that is easier controlled and manipulated. That's also why terms are being used deliberately incorrectly, to move legitimate positions nearer to criminal activity. Just ask anyone interested in hobbyist chemistry.

[flagged]

  > That way build sympathy for the law-breakers
how do you build sympathy for law-breakers...? i'm having a hard time understating...
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