Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

thedriven.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

611–620 of 919 posts

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#611

Post by fwungy »

chaorace wrote: post #574
fwungy wrote: post #562

>no mention of cost Means expensive chemistry. >targeting aircraft first Means expensive chemistry >no mention of durability If they were highly durable this would be an important feature so they're likely not. Sounds like these are going to be expensive special application batteries.

FWIW: lithium-ion was also expensive chemistry. If the promise matches the reality, supply chains will eventually realign to the point where consumer applications become feasible.

We are likely in the incremental phase of battery innovation.

You've got to balance so many factors to commercially release a battery: safety, durability, reliability, weight, energy density, cost. You can build cheap batteries, they just have some terrible characteristics.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#612

Post by scythe »

bagels wrote: post #2

"CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg which it says will go into mass production this year" This is a lot more credible than most of the battery stories, because CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility. This is a little under 2x the density of current batteries.

>This is a little under 2x the density of [the best] current batteries.

[brackets mine]

But the best batteries contain unacceptably high levels of cobalt. Practical EV batteries are made with nickel or iron, maybe vanadium someday, and have lower density than pure LiCoO2.

>CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility.

A couple of years ago CATL claimed that they had figured out how to make durable sodium-ion batteries with a ferricyanide cathode, to be released in 2023. The press cheered about the end of lithium dependence.

Yesterday, not long before this announcement, it was revealed that CATL's "sodium-ion" battery contains lithium:

https://cnevpost.com/2023/04/20/catl-byd-sodium-ion-batterie...

"CATL and BYD's sodium-ion batteries to be put into mass production will both be a mix of sodium-ion and lithium-ion batteries, according to local media."

[sad trombone noises]

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#615

Post by Slapshot_gd »

bartvk wrote: post #553
geysersam wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone want to use e-fuel in 2035 instead of electricity? (Except for "luxury" brands that just want to be special to distinguish themselves from the rabble.)

Long distance trucks?

That was exactly my thinking actually..... I own an equestrian property as a hobby, I need a big diesel truck (1 ton) to haul horses, hay, tractor, etc... Sometimes for very long distances (>1000kms) for shows, etc... There are no viable options today, or in the near (10-15 years) future that offer viable alternatives in the form of an EV... at least not from traditional HD truck vendors.....

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#616

Post by vezuchyy »

Someone wrote: post #29
krasin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's consider Cessna-172S ([4]). Its characteristics: - 130 kW engine, Lycoming_O-360 that weighs 117 kg. For comparison, an electric motor of this range would weigh 11-13 kg (at 10-12 kW/kg, [2]). That saves 100+ kg weight immediately and we can put 50+ kWh batteries instead. - It carries up to 200 liters of kerosene ([3]), which weighs 164 kg. We can place 82 kWh of batteries instead. - The engine consumes around…

The airplane would be a bit heavier at landing, though. I expect that will require a somewhat heavier landing gear. I also think taking out the weight of the tank is unfair if you don’t add weight for the structures for holding the batteries. But yes, for many smaller planes, we’re close to flying electric on shorter flights being economically feasible.

Harbour Air successfully tested electric plane based on De Havilland Beaver. This is still a super short distance but I think the longest route Harbour air has is Vancouver Seattle and it's a 55 minute flight.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#617

Post by rootusrootus »

gambiting wrote: post #599
falcolas wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most batteries that run starters are not energy dense, they're typically standard lead acid batteries. FWIW, to provide the 225 amps (for a V8 starter motor) a Tesla car battery would only need a discharge capability of 3C (1C being around 80 amps), which is within its rated capabilities. This is also for batteries which provide higher voltages, so I'm vastly overestimating the C rate required. C is the unit for char…

Sure but it's not about starter motors - these batteries power 400kW motors, that's a lot of power.

That's why how much power an EV has is closely related to the size of the battery. 400kW from a 75kWh battery is a little over 5C.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#618

Post by osigurdson »

dd36 wrote: post #500
osigurdson wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely not an apples-to-apples comparison. With an EV the ball is already at the top of the hill and merely needs to be rolled down, with an ICE car, the ball has to be pushed up the hill first. The power plant does all of the heavy lifting for the EV. Not a mark against EVs of course - it kind of just makes sense. I'm sure future generations will laugh that every vehicle used to have its own on-board pow…

It’s not cheaper.

If EVs were cheaper, everyone would own one.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#619

Post by laweijfmvo »

oblio wrote: post #142
msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

That's about the same efficiency as every modern EV. This is not Tesla specific. Electric motors are very efficient, regenerative braking helps, EVs are designed to be super aerodynamic, etc.

Any reason why non-EVs couldn't get the same aero improvements as EVs?

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#620

Post by vidarh »

avernon wrote: post #495
vidarh wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thought of a return to more of a hub-and-spoke model sounds like a total nightmare. It'd take a huge price difference before I'd consider that, personally (EDIT: As in, I usually check "direct flights only" or equivalent and only relent if the cost is ridiculously much higher). Then again my perspective is being near multiple large international airports, so maybe that might appeal to some.

Hub and spoke is primarily used to fill large planes. If you have 10-20 passenger electric planes you'd land at some random county airport, eat a hamburger or a taco while the plane recharges, then get back on the same plane and finish the trip. So you'd have a layover like hub and spoke but all the concerns about missing connections go away.

That would be somewhat more palatable to me.
Post reply on HN