TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids • Hacker News Board

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#141

Post by KaiserPro » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

rvz wrote: post #2

They still haven't learned their lesson and its algorithm is just as bad as the rest of the other social networks, if not the worst. Perhaps they should be fined in the millions like the rest of the other social network companies like Facebook, Instagram, etc. Repeat offences should be increased into the billions if possible.

define the "algorithm"

all it does is offer you choices of things that people generally react to. Its a window to your desires/hates.

Now, if you are taught that you are allowed to "long press/right click" and say "I don't like this" then your life gets much better.

Does that mean that they shouldn't have a duty of care to their customers? no.

Does that mean that they don't have a responsibility to keep a high standard of safe/good/clean content on their platform? no.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#142

Post by ulfw » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

jrm4 wrote: post #92

This still feels like a hit piece, designed to favor e.g. Meta et al against Tiktok. While I have concerns about the above, I am MUCH more concerned that through this and Twitter's recent changes, we're slowly losing extremely valuable "alternative news sources." and that these are mostly a result of quiet socio-politcal interests, and not for many (or any) genuine concerns for safety (i.e. Facebook and Instagram wil…

Meta just copies. Reels (videos!) on instagram (a photo app!) is a straight up copy of tiktok with the vast majority of videos on it just copies or resubmissions of videos originating on tiktok.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#143

Post by ilyt » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

CryptoBanker wrote: post #123

yellow_lead wrote: post #106

Although TikTok should do better to demote these kinds of videos, I can't buy the conspiracy theory that this is done intentionally. Anyone who knows a bit about recommendation systems can understand that watching depressing videos will get you more in your feed. Collaborative filtering with i.e watch time as a signal will lead someone who watches them to more.

Why does it matter if it’s intentional? Negligence is still a crime

"Give you more videos you wanted to watch in the first place" is hardly a negligence.

In case of alcohol, sure I can see it but that is not exactly comparable. Enough alcohol will kill you 100% of the time, this aint even close.

that being said some content warning or a bit of push to seek help wouldn't be a bad idea when someone gets stuck in some topic like that

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#144

Post by mrguyorama » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #50

Dig1t wrote: post #8

Seriously though, why haven't we banned TikTok yet? There is no legitimate reason to allow them to keep pushing disinfo here. There are already tons of replacements lined up ready to replace it, it would not hurt anyone in the US at all to ban it.

The US government is working on it by giving themselves sweeping new powers to throw you in jail for using apps that are not approved. This answers your question: the harm banning it does is the laws that will be pushed to make it happen. Meanwhile, as you said, Instagram stands ready to show the same kind of content to teenagers if TikTok goes away. I suspect the actual harm reduction will be minimal.

It's perfectly possible to ban TikTok without making something like the RESTRICT act, which for once is aptly named.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#145

Post by BrianGragg » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:51 PM UTC

racl101 wrote: post #93

BrianGragg wrote: post #25

Tiktok pushes what you interact with the most. If you comment, if you heart, if you watch it and content like it all the way through it assumes its the content that you like and will give you more like it. If you see something you don't like keep scrolling. It learns and stops showing that content.

So sad and mopey people keep watching sad and mopey shit and keep making themselves more depressed. Good stuff. [thisisfine.jpg]

Unfortunately yes.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#146

Post by ilyt » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:51 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #132

yellow_lead wrote: post #106

Although TikTok should do better to demote these kinds of videos, I can't buy the conspiracy theory that this is done intentionally. Anyone who knows a bit about recommendation systems can understand that watching depressing videos will get you more in your feed. Collaborative filtering with i.e watch time as a signal will lead someone who watches them to more.

Allowing it on your platform, (and it applies to Everyone not just tiktok) Isn't right. Negligently letting it be pushed onto people is much worse. Imagine if facebook were doing the same thing now, there would me massive uproar.

Yeah random acts of censorship for "good of the people", what can go bad /s

by all means put a content warning or maybe a suicide prevention hotline or other help but I'm tired of clowns trying to solve any problem with "bad content" with censorship. Like that didn't misfire enough times in history...

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#147

Post by ilyt » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

AraceliHarker wrote: post #28

Recently, a group of high school girls jumped to their deaths in Matsudo, Japan, and the video trended on Twitter, and it showed up at the top of relevant searches for 'suicide'. To be honest, I think the priority display of this kind of shocking content is a problem not only for TikTok, but for social media in general.

The old school news media outlets would plaster that story on front page, it's not something new to social media

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#148

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

greenhearth wrote: post #79

AraceliHarker wrote: post #28

Recently, a group of high school girls jumped to their deaths in Matsudo, Japan, and the video trended on Twitter, and it showed up at the top of relevant searches for 'suicide'. To be honest, I think the priority display of this kind of shocking content is a problem not only for TikTok, but for social media in general.

There's a chapter in Malcolm Gladwell's famous "The Tipping Point" that deals with waves of teenage suicides. He describes that a single suicide acts as a subliminal permission for this behavior to be mimicked. This permission is sent out as a beacon and susceptible agents replicate this behavior. I forget the details of it, but the point was that this could be extended to other behavior as well, possibly all behavio…

> this could be extended to other behavior

I recall a story someone told (can't remember if it was a co-worker or a comment on this site) about someone in an office who stood up from their desk at 4:00 on a Friday, said, "I guess I'll take one for the team," and walked out the door. Sounds a bit like that.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#149

Post by ilyt » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:53 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #126

cloudking wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't keep them off it. If you don't provide them access, they can get access on their friend's devices. The key is education, you have to explain to your kids how these services works, how they are optimized for content engagement to show ads, how they mine your data, and what kinds of things they should look out for and avoid (like misinformation, catfishing, grooming, viral stupidity etc)

"You can't keep kids from drinking alcohol, they can get it from their friends parents." This is also a true statement, but happens far less than it does with social media (or other violent or otherwise undesired media). That's not currently what people want, but I think it could change it the future. But at the same time, there is a particular American quality of stubborness/pride that will probably push back "we ha…

>"You can't keep kids from drinking alcohol, they can get it from their friends parents."

>This is also a true statement, but happens far less than it does with social media (or other violent or otherwise undesired media).

There is a difference between parent giving kid a lesson about alcohol (which the poster above is proposing), and just starting to drink with your underage kid (which you are comparing to)

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#150

Post by soganess » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:54 PM UTC

elecush wrote: post #129

mountainb wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proving causation is nearly insurmountable in suicide negligence cases even in fact patterns in which the person who killed themselves was heavily influenced by some person or someone who made the implements convenient to access. With a software application, causation is even more attenuated because the person's decision to kill themselves is almost always considered a superseding cause.

let's agree this is bad and hold them accountable

How? Using what laws? If there are no clearly relevant laws, perhaps you expect congress to pass one expediently?

Let's suppose there is no law on the books that explicitly fleshes out liability if you train a model and it does not do as you expect, we'll need to figure out some nearest neighbor matching.

So you will have to shoehorn this novel issue into some preexisting framework of precedent. Maybe something about negligence liability and a common public use item, like a bridge or something. But a bridge isn't as complicated as an ML model and a bridge failure is way more auditable. Bridges don't hallucinate. Also there are unintended consequences to doing this sort of legal massaging, before you know it, campaign finance = speech.

"Hold them accountable" is so broad that verges on meaninglessness. Part of the whole living in a rapidly evolving tech landscape is living with laws that are always a few steps behind the times. Which bleeping sucks, but until we press for a better large scale solution, it is going to keep sucking.