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Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#481

Post by 1letterunixname »

softwaredoug wrote: post #113

As a parent. It's a hard topic. And not black and white. For the 10+ crowd, the days of kids roaming the streets, finding their friends and playing are gone. I think the causes for this are complicated, and social media (and screens) are just one part of the puzzle. Consider a few things: 1. The percentage of households with kids has gradually declined over time, while the percentage of retirees has gone up. So you j…

> For the 10+ crowd, the days of kids roaming the streets, finding their friends and playing are gone. I think the causes for this are complicated, and social media (and screens) are just one part of the puzzle.

Blood hell. Kids will be like zoo exhibits of the last of their species. Seems in everyone's benefit that they are well-socialized, street smart, well-educated, AND not make virtually the same mistakes everyone else are making. We can rapidly go from the myth of "overpopulation" to population crash in as short as a generation.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#482

Post by rodgerd »

asdff wrote: post #340
1827162 wrote: post #94

I think it's the total visibility that's causing mental illness. There is no space where you can be with your friends, screw up, and not have it become known to everyone in your peer group. There's little space to make mistakes. No space to be yourself. You are under the watchful gaze of your friends, i.e. peer surveillance, nearly all of the time. Which induces stifling conformity. Everything's under constant scruti…

I don't think this is unique to social media. Try dressing different from the norm in the 1990s before people even had cellphones in class and you'd definitely end up ostracized. It would be even worse because there's no way to find people who might be different like you, unlike today where there are forums and other websites.

> Try dressing different from the norm in the 1990s

Social media is small town gossip, at scale.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#483

Post by rodgerd »

tssva wrote: post #354
LapsangGuzzler wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something has to be behind the seemingly coordinated rise in depression among children globally, that's the leading indicator he's using to assess the problem. His argument is that it can't be anything other than social media. You're making the case in the micro scale: what is one person's relationship with depression and social media, and he's arguing in the macro scale. Something has caused depression to spike in c…

The child mental health industrial complex which started in the 2000's and has boomed over the last decade as parents have been bombarded with the message that they need to rush their kids off to a therapist at the slightest sign of normal teenage angst or they are bad parents. Schools have bought into this and participate in the messaging. Once under "treatment" kids are repeatedly told they have anxiety and/or depr…

> The child mental health industrial complex

This seems like a rational, evidence-based position.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#484

Post by caddemon »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #270
throwaway9191aa wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just moving into this phase as well. The same parents that said it was ridiculous kids have phones, are now getting their kids phones. I've heard that not having a phone is essentially like knowing the whole school is invited to party, except you. I'm really not sure what to do.

Maybe we give-in with clear boundaries and regular check-ins? Give-in and Check-in support group :)

How old are kids these days requesting social media? I think at some point it's inevitable that they'll figure out a way on, so it's probably better to allow with boundaries and teach healthy habits early-ish. It can start getting socially detrimental to be completely off social media too, e.g. missing invites to larger gatherings.

But I have no idea how young we are actually talking here, my experience with this like a decade ago (so also not quite as harmful platforms) was handling the topic at around 13 yo.

At that time though completely restricting seemed a real gamble, some of the kids with no access snuck around and were the ones behind irresponsible shit that became school gossip. For example one kid without a Facebook made an account impersonating one of his teachers, used it to friend other teachers and see their private-ish info. Got easily caught because he also friended some of his real friends with the same account and even made some timeline posts back and forth, narrowed it down real quick.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#485

Post by Aunche »

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #25
woodruffw wrote: post #5

Just to levy a single criticism among several: I find Haidt’s rebuttal of the climate change hypothesis unconvincing: fears around climate change are not “energizing” in the way that prior crises are, in a significant part because public sentiment around climate change is that we’re already doomed in a way that isn’t really possible with social crises. Similarly: I don’t think most teenage girls were voraciously read…

The whole activism thing doesent do a lot anymore, since the social plaza belongs to cooperate and the state, and activism was shown to be easy exhaustable compared to the endurance of lobbyism aka cooperate activism. Future frustrated voices will turn straight to violence and skip this unproducitve state of affairs.

>The whole activism thing doesent do a lot anymore

This is because activism today has completely become synonymous with raising awareness. While raising awareness is important, it's also the easiest part of activism, since the rise of the internet, so it's what people gravitate towards the most. That's how we end up with so much doomposting and doomscrolling on social media.

Individual action served as the foundation of Civil Rights movement, such as the Montgomery bus boycotts. It may be difficult to reason why walking a hour to work every day in the hot, Alabama sun rather than taking this bus will expand their rights, but history taught us that it was important. Meanwhile, there isn't a similar coordinated effort to carpool and seek alternative means of commuting today. What was also important were donations that funded legal challenges to discriminating businesses and municipal governments. Again, you don't see grass-roots organization funding lawsuits against corporations that are illegally polluting. Most important of all is ironically lobbying. Without the lobbying efforts of the NAACP, the Civil Rights protection may not have made it through, and if they had, they would have been substantially weaker. Again, this isn't something that is ever suggested by climate activists, despite their awareness of its importance. As Haidt implies, unlike doomscrolling, these types of activism are actually empowering.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#486

Post by mkaic »

codegeek wrote: post #399
softwaredoug wrote: post #113

As a parent. It's a hard topic. And not black and white. For the 10+ crowd, the days of kids roaming the streets, finding their friends and playing are gone. I think the causes for this are complicated, and social media (and screens) are just one part of the puzzle. Consider a few things: 1. The percentage of households with kids has gradually declined over time, while the percentage of retirees has gone up. So you j…

Great points. I was just in Spain (Madrid) and noticed teenagers playing in parks and even on swings etc along with small children. I never see that in American parks, never. I don't know the mental happiness of teenagers in Spain/Madrid in general but my wife and I thought it was interesting.

Not to contradict your point (which I agree with!), but I as someone who was recently an American teenager I think you might be happy to know that me and my friends used to quite enjoy going to the park and playing on the swingsets! Though we were certainly the exception, not the rule.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#488

Post by burnished »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #475
burnished wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really should have gotten through the rest of the article, it addresses everything you bring up and more.

I've skimmed his argument and it boils down to "I have a hypothesis explaining this phenomenon and you don't." It doesn't address anything I've asserted. I can think of several possibilities off the cuff but that's not likely to go good places. Everything I know about human psychology says "Contrary to popular opinion, family life is much more formative and influential for legal minors than their peer group." Edit: I…

More like "and no one does, we've been searching, by the by if you have a theory drop us a line". If you've got good theories maybe drop them a line?

I don't see how your edit meaningfully moves the dialogue - lets say I agree with you and it is a matter of lucid law that poor parenting is a necessary component for subsequent harm to occur w.r.t social media use - whats your point? Does that mean that no harm is occurring or that it isn't important? Or something else?

it just seems orthogonal to the question at hand

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#489

Post by rocketbop »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #460
Nextgrid wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between some completely random person taking a picture and your circle of friends is that it's very unlikely for the former to reach anyone you know, where as with the latter it's a guarantee.

But then it would be brought to their attention? And they can respond? If it's never brought to their attention, it's pointless to worry about.

Obviously doctor, you’ve never been a thirteen year old girl.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#490

Post by seattle_spring »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #289
kloch wrote: post #145

I just want to say this was one of the most enjoyable articles I have read in a long time. It's informative, respectful to critics, and exudes a "confident but restrained" tone that is so rare in public discourse these days.

We must have read different articles. What I read amount to special pleading where the author confuses scientific and judicial epistemology, doesn't do a literature review, and comes cross as hopelessly naive.

Jonathan Haidt is one of those psychology "gurus" like Jordan Peterson. You're right to read his stuff with an enormous amount of skepticism.
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