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Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#411

Post by MikeSchurman »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #375
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am willing to agree that it is still more art than science in its current state, but I personally think we are slowly moving towards a replicable mind after all -- a terrifying prospect, because it would truly prove 'free will' is an illusion. It currently seems impossible due to sheer number of factors with overlapping effects. I don't think it is impossible though.

I suspect it is improbable, because an honest, undeniable belief that you lack free will would drive someone stark raving mad. It would represent a fundamental phase change in the way an individual interacts with the world, which I would wager would be antithetical to effective transmission of the belief. Far more dangerous would be the 90% mark, where understanding of psychological determinism advances to a point wh…

I don't believe in free will. I haven't really for about 20 years or so. However, I act as if I do, as I've always done. It's a habit I choose not to break. Changing to act as I believe would be too much for me to handle. I would need to rethink pretty much everything I do. It's a completely different set of axioms in every domain of human knowledge, ethics, behaviour and interaction.

I don't think I'm raving mad, but perhaps because I don't act on my beliefs, I don't fit your conditions?

However, I do believe the justice system would be better run with this in mind.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#412

Post by max51 »

kayge wrote: post #406
max51 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Case in point, my son and his friends have a small discord server. And they play minecraft on a shared server. This not the same as scrolling TikTok / Instagram. But it's a degree of independence somewhat away from parental eyes. I think not enough people here are understanding the distinction between a communication tool (eg. discord), doom-scrolling platform like tiktok, and video games. A discord server can be ve…

Video games are a sore subject in my house... I grew up with them and I turned out arguably okay (healthy, employable, sociable, etc). But my wife thinks they are the bane of society. And it wasn't until recently that I realized how much the "endgame" of video games has shifted since my childhood in the 90s. Back then, it seemed like the majority of games had an actual end, or they continued to get progressively pain…

yes, things have definitely changed for video games in the past few years.

Loot boxes and the concept of being peer-pressured into paying money for trendy skins is not something that existed when I grew up. TBH, I think many concepts that are popular in AAA games today should require robust 18+ (or even 21+) ID verification to be allowed to use them. I generally never like the idea to banning things for everyone, but we can at least make it a bit harder for kids to access them.

Minecraft is one of the extremely few addictive games I wouldn't be too worried about if I was raising kids but I would verify what type of server/maps they are using. They get to build things and interacts with other people and last time I checked they had relatively few dark patterns (no gambling, loot boxes, paying for trendy skins, pay-to-win, etc.). I hope it is still the same today.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#413

Post by 0xBABAD00C »

LapsangGuzzler wrote: post #39
raxxorraxor wrote: post #16

> girls who spend more than 4 hours a day on social media have two to three times the rate of depression as girls who spend an hour or less. Not that it proves anything, but the converse argument, that depressed girls spend more time on social media or online in general, should also be examined. If the data could support this thesis to a similar degree, there is no conclusive statement about social media really induc…

Something has to be behind the seemingly coordinated rise in depression among children globally, that's the leading indicator he's using to assess the problem. His argument is that it can't be anything other than social media. You're making the case in the micro scale: what is one person's relationship with depression and social media, and he's arguing in the macro scale. Something has caused depression to spike in c…

It's not a strong argument to say "what could it be other than X? therefore, X"

> What could it be?

Sense of community is gone. Trust is at an all-time low. Traditional social institutions and scaffolding that held society together are gone. Families are more broken apart than ever. It's an entire regime change, and we're still operating with our old instincts/hardware, which expects to be raised in a village by a largely familiar and empathetic community. The farther we get from that model, the more we'll be stressed out (until and unless we upgrade our hardware somehow, or, more likely, die trying).

Social media is small potatoes in comparison to the changes that have happened already, and especially to those that are coming.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#414

Post by jimbob45 »

hackerlight wrote: post #409
TechBro8615 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always just delete your account. Granted, that's easier for me to say as an adult than it would be for your average peer-pressured teenager. But that's where parents can help. I think eventually, teens will see social media as "uncool" in the same way as they see smoking cigarettes as "uncool" (in some countries). It takes a lot of social propagandizing to popularize that idea, but we did it with cigarettes a…

One of Haidt's points is that you can't escape by deleting your account, because everyone else is still online. Suppose you're a teenage girl. The gossip mill about you is still going to be doing the rounds on social media, so the cyberbulling can't be stopped whether or not you're participating. If anything, being the strange outcast by refusing to go online will inflame things. That's one reason why a ban for those…

You say that but it's a bit tough to care if you don't see it happen. It's possible for everyone here to be the subject of a meme somewhere of a picture taken without consent. However, it just feels tough to care unless you actually see the meme and the reactions of people to it.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#415

Post by fnimick »

softwaredoug wrote: post #113

As a parent. It's a hard topic. And not black and white. For the 10+ crowd, the days of kids roaming the streets, finding their friends and playing are gone. I think the causes for this are complicated, and social media (and screens) are just one part of the puzzle. Consider a few things: 1. The percentage of households with kids has gradually declined over time, while the percentage of retirees has gone up. So you j…

> The pressure for teenagers to fill their time with activities is very high. The parents feel to perform / get into whatever good college / do well in life, they need to have their time spoken for by a large number of activities. Helicopter parenting has really taken new heights in the last decade.

This is the big one, in conjunction with other comments about how there's "no tolerance for failure" anymore. You have to be on track to be a top tier performer by the time you're 10 or else you will never make it back up (or at least that's how a lot of people feel). Plus there's a sense that either you make it to the top, or you might as well be at the bottom, because the middle class is rapidly vanishing.

The pressure is higher, and starts younger, than ever before.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#416

Post by TheMode »

asdff wrote: post #340
1827162 wrote: post #94

I think it's the total visibility that's causing mental illness. There is no space where you can be with your friends, screw up, and not have it become known to everyone in your peer group. There's little space to make mistakes. No space to be yourself. You are under the watchful gaze of your friends, i.e. peer surveillance, nearly all of the time. Which induces stifling conformity. Everything's under constant scruti…

I don't think this is unique to social media. Try dressing different from the norm in the 1990s before people even had cellphones in class and you'd definitely end up ostracized. It would be even worse because there's no way to find people who might be different like you, unlike today where there are forums and other websites.

Wouldn't you just be pushed into dressing the same way? Is it really problematic?

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#417

Post by xwdv »

asdff wrote: post #340
1827162 wrote: post #94

I think it's the total visibility that's causing mental illness. There is no space where you can be with your friends, screw up, and not have it become known to everyone in your peer group. There's little space to make mistakes. No space to be yourself. You are under the watchful gaze of your friends, i.e. peer surveillance, nearly all of the time. Which induces stifling conformity. Everything's under constant scruti…

I don't think this is unique to social media. Try dressing different from the norm in the 1990s before people even had cellphones in class and you'd definitely end up ostracized. It would be even worse because there's no way to find people who might be different like you, unlike today where there are forums and other websites.

I think being able to find others like you is actually what really sends mental health spiraling.

Back in the day, if you were a pathetic loser, that’s all you were, and that’s how you had to navigate life. This would force you to take an honest look at yourself and see why you don’t fit in to larger society and maybe if you should try to be different. And eventually you might become a version of yourself a bit more acceptable to society. Even if you knew deep down you were a pathetic loser, at least now you knew how to cooperate and be agreeable with others and even make friends that are different from you and not total losers. In time you would gain wisdom about life and be content with yourself.

But now? It’s quick to find so many others exactly like you, and you can feed off each others thoughts and words of encouragement, no matter how twisted. Eventually you see everyone not like you as an enemy, rather than as a person whose friendship and acceptance you seek to earn. You lose your connection to the rest of society, you find yourself increasingly unable to relate, and find yourself spending your days seething with hate at the society that you feel has nothing to offer you, filled with people you’ll never give a fuck about.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#418

Post by BlueTemplar »

max51 wrote: post #404
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lumping of these together might help explain the gender imbalance in the mental health effect. It's pretty well documented that boys play more videogames, especially going into the later teen years, and that's more conducive to smaller, tight-knit (today, likely discord) communities. If the time being spent on a discord call with your friends playing Minecraft are being counted as social media use the same way do…

>The lumping of these together might help explain the gender imbalance in the mental health effect. I never thought of it that way but it makes a lot of sense in retrospect. It would also explain why the only people I know who developed IT skills on their own were boys. Running videos games or trying to create them back in 2004 required you to learn a lot about how computers work and how to use them. There were no fr…

In my perhaps anecdotal experience, the risk of getting a virus from a crack is and was hugely overblown. And we now know that copy protection came with malware too, most infamously with Sony's SecuROM (same group also seems to have made Denuvo).

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#419

Post by [deleted] »

Brusco_RF wrote: post #400
Paul-Craft wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're making stuff for people who get no input into how that stuff is made, much of which they can't just stop consuming.

Of course people have an input. You can buy it from someone else who makes it a different way, or not at all.

[deleted]

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#420

Post by llamaLord »

xwdv wrote: post #417
asdff wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is unique to social media. Try dressing different from the norm in the 1990s before people even had cellphones in class and you'd definitely end up ostracized. It would be even worse because there's no way to find people who might be different like you, unlike today where there are forums and other websites.

I think being able to find others like you is actually what really sends mental health spiraling. Back in the day, if you were a pathetic loser, that’s all you were, and that’s how you had to navigate life. This would force you to take an honest look at yourself and see why you don’t fit in to larger society and maybe if you should try to be different. And eventually you might become a version of yourself a bit more…

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