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Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

291–300 of 580 posts

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#291
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying there's nothing wrong with giving thalidomide to pregnant women, because pregnant women have always taken herbal supplements. The obvious difference is that newspapers contain a relatively small amount of information packaged in a non-interactive, non-targeted, and less mind-absorbing format. People don't read newspapers for the dopamine hit, but for lack of something else to do.

that’s not true at all. the process of learning is a dopamine hit. the concept that phones made us antisocial is dumb, it’s a default. arguing to end phones avoids dealing with the problem

> the process of learning is a dopamine hit

Perhaps reading newspapers produces some dopamine, but I imagine it is tiny in comparison to the effects of smartphones, and does not provide the user with the easy option to keep scrolling for more dopamine.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some major headlines in Florida recently: "Florida Republicans Take Aim at Gender-Affirming Care, Drag Shows... [The bill] would treat parents as abusers for allowing medical care to children, and cracks down on parenting harder even than Texas Gov. Greg Abbott’s notorious anti-trans child executive order." [1] "Florida lawmakers approve death penalty in child rapes, sending bill to governor... The Florida Senate on…

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The American right has spent the last couple of years intentionally and systematicallly conflating LGBTQ people with child sexual assault by starting to call them "groomers". That's who's doing this dot-connecting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_grooming_conspiracy_theor...

Surely you've noticed?

> drag shows for children.

God forbid someone in a dress read a storybook. Try not to engage in this ridiculous moral panic.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A contra-narrative to your point is that there exist a minority of people who hold very specific and very dogmatic views about gender. These people are pushing their views through the education system (I do not know the extent of it, just that it exists), and seemingly without the consent of parents (i.e., social transitions without informing parents). While I deeply disagree and detest the use of the term "groomer",…

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The idea that drag shows mock trans women would surprise a lot of trans women drag performers. It’s not an unheard of position for trans women but it is not the norm.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#294
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly, I used to have the same view of sports. Growing up where I did, it was common for folks to be fanatical on their local college sports team. Such that they get mean to folks from their "rival" schools and are generally trash talking to everyone else. It was so bad, that I certainly thought that was how you were supposed to be. Pick a side and be aggressive to the opponents when watching the game. Goal was to ma…

Note that in your example, it's not the athletes that are being toxic (usually), it's the spectators. It's common for sports fans to say things like, "we're playing Los Angeles next week" or "we picked up so-and-so in the draft" when there's really no "we" about it. The speaker is not involved in the action in any way other than as one observing it. But using that language makes them feel included in something bigger…

Ish. Trash talking is a huge thing in sports. Similarly many prudish administrators go out of their way to punish the players for celebrations and such.

Edit: And I'm curious how this relates to the topic at hand. Not that I think it is unrelated, but specifically how. We seem to be in rather strong agreement that it is the relationship with a thing that is unhealthy, with regards to sports. Why or how would that be different with regards to social media?

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change is now climate catastrophism. It's unfortunately many times more doomer today than ever. And while climate itself is not energizing, "doing something about it to save the world' is because it's simple even if it's in-effective. A phenomena like Greta Thunberg wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for that. And wind and solar and tesla and other avenue that doesn't really do anything other than let us waste…

It appears to me that fears over catastrophic climate change are yet another moral panic. Amplified by social media this time. As with other moral panics (e.g. child abductions, pedophilia), the problem exists, but is blown way out of proportion by the media. In reality, I believe there of course will be changes in the weather patterns due to a relatively small increase in temperature, but it's not going to be the en…

> I kind of intuitively know this, and mostly disregard the opinions of those saying that there is impending doom.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/truthiness

> It will be interesting to see if I'm right about it or not, over the coming decades...

You are wrong. No need to wait, the effects are already starting to be visible.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#296
post #234

Wow. I both respect this post, while being annoyed at its direction. It is very respectful in the intro, by explicitly not trying to be attacks against the critics. However, it then is entreating the readers to pick a side for most of the rest. I assert that you should not pick a side. Instead, you should look at how you can add to and learn from the data. Odds are high that both sides have some points that are worth…

> I assert that you should not pick a side. Instead, you should look at how you can add to and learn from the data. Haidt is sufficiently convinced by the existing data that he feels strongly that what is called for is action, not more data collection (or perhaps, action alongside more data collection). You are apparently not as convinced as Haidt. That's OK, but you need to consider the perspective of someone who fe…

Yeah, but I can say we should agree with his proposals without "picking his side." We probably should take a lot of the actions he is proposing. But we should not dismiss the "other side" while doing so.

Edit: I see I should not have said "the data" in what to learn from. Rather, I am arguing that we can and should learn from both sides here. For things that are more actionable, taking the actions will let us learn even more. But, and this is huge, it could be that taking these actions does nothing. The "do something" attitude that is prevalent in all society is often wrong. Particularly about what should be done.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#297

It's quite hard for me to judge this topic because I am so thoroughly convinced that social media is toxic for mental health. I think unfortunately it has become pervasive enough that you can't avoid experiencing it's toxic influence. There has been a complete loss in any interest in meeting a middle ground and like the use of stocks in medieval times the concept of cancellation is much more power than any reality. T…

I think social media amplified trends that were there before. I remember when I came to the US in 2000 it was pretty fashionable to say “I am angry” all the time. And the hatred at politicians was pretty pronounced too. And the cable news was already spreading fear and anger. Personally I think modern media starting with cable TV allowed hatemongers to easily reach large groups. The internet just made it much worse.…

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Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#298
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying there's nothing wrong with giving thalidomide to pregnant women, because pregnant women have always taken herbal supplements. The obvious difference is that newspapers contain a relatively small amount of information packaged in a non-interactive, non-targeted, and less mind-absorbing format. People don't read newspapers for the dopamine hit, but for lack of something else to do.

> That's like saying there's nothing wrong with giving thalidomide to pregnant women, because pregnant women have always taken herbal supplements. Your analogy is better than you think, because in fact there isn't anything wrong with giving pregnant women thalidomide at all! You just have to not do it within a very carefully defined range of time within pregnancy, but before and after that it's as safe as milk. Turns…

Interesting. I've looked for sources on that and found a couple of sites saying that the sensitive period is 20-37 days after conception, but come up short of studies on anything later.

This webpage seems to suggest the risks are unknown after first trimester: https://mothertobaby.org/fact-sheets/thalidomide-pregnancy/

Same from this university classroom material (p.2): https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/MediaLibraries/URMCMedia/life...

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, can you elaborate on your point a little bit - I'm not sure where you're going but genuinely want to understand.

Even if effectively 0% of people hold extremist views (and I think that is a low number), they also commit outsized acts of violence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_nightclub_sho... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting You'll also note that mainstream conservatives refused to condemn the Colorado Springs shooting and there has been no change in the rhetoric that encouraged it.

> Even if effectively 0% of people hold extremist views (and I think that is a low number), they also commit outsized acts of violence.

Sure, that's true. But it's always been true and, AFAICT, will always be true. But they are such a tiny number of the total population that they aren't the gatekeepers to progress on big social issues.

There is a tendency today to give people like that the spotlight and to paint everyone the slightest bit on the other side as being of the same ilk. Both of these things are mistakes that give those extremists power they couldn't otherwise get.

Backing up, the context here is the notion of finding some middle or common ground instead of splitting into warring tribes. When we fall into the trap of believing that the other side is full of people that look like the extremists on the other side, it eliminates the possibility of there being a middle ground. The result is a deeper divide, utter despair, a lack of progress on resolving issues, and often more people moving to the extremes.

OTOH, when we recognize that the extremists are in fact extremists (i.e. statistical outliers), it's empowering and hopeful. The distance between your views and those of the vast majority of people on the other side is actually much shorter than the distance between your views and those of their extremists (and even likely shorter than the distance between their views and the views of their extremists). It really is a bell curve; don't buy into the lie that it's an inverted one. There is an abundance of potential allies (including the main ones that have a real shot of deradicalizing some of those extremists), most of those other guys are pretty decent people, and real progress is plausible.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some major headlines in Florida recently: "Florida Republicans Take Aim at Gender-Affirming Care, Drag Shows... [The bill] would treat parents as abusers for allowing medical care to children, and cracks down on parenting harder even than Texas Gov. Greg Abbott’s notorious anti-trans child executive order." [1] "Florida lawmakers approve death penalty in child rapes, sending bill to governor... The Florida Senate on…

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If parents don't want their kids attending drag shows it's pretty easy for them to simply not take their kids, but that's not what's happening.

What's happening is that those parents are making a fuss about what other parents are deciding to do.

Telling other kids and parents what to do is a consistent position. Like forced identity disclosures in schools. It isn't enough that they would like to get notified, but every kid who asks to be called something different has to be disclosed, or if they don't want their kid playing sports with a trans kid, they would rather kick out the trans kid out than make choices about their own participation.

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