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Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

231–240 of 580 posts

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no middle ground between wanting to kill someone and wanting to let them live in peace. A big part of the problem, though, is that the extremist voices/views get amplified the loudest, and then get trotted out as a typical example of the "other" side. And thanks to modern communication, you can always find bizarre extremist voices to amplify, so it leads to this narrative that the extremist view is held by…

Sadly "effectively 0" includes a number of mass shooters.

Sorry, can you elaborate on your point a little bit - I'm not sure where you're going but genuinely want to understand.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even the most environmentally aware people around me pretty much just eat less meat, but they haven't actually changed their ways. So I don't expect the average F150 driving steak eater to suddenly start changing their ways. What do you expect people in general to do? Granted, driving an F150 is not an environmentally friendly activity, but suppose they all cut their "carbon footprint" [0] by 50%. How much would th…

The 100 corporations thing is silly. They aren't out there polluting for the fun of it, they're making stuff for people and organizations. If people and governments and companies stop buying gas, the pollution on Chevron's ledger for oil extraction and refining will plummet as they get stuck with smaller markets like plastic manufacturing. Those dastardly 100 corporations are emitting to make stuff for you.

Thanks for writing this, people in general seems to completely be missing this point. Oil companies pollute to provide us with:

Fuel for our cars. Fuel for shipping all the goods we want cheaply made in Asia. Fuel for planes to business meetings that could be done online. Fuel for planes we take to mass consume alcohol in the Caribbean. Plastics for packaging all that stuff we're buying. Plastics for producing the stuff we're buying. Plastics for producing the cheap clothing we wear twice and throw out.

Oil companies are just one example. And alternatives for most of this this are all more expensive, which is why most people don't want to switch to better alternatives, like:

Buy locally sourced produce. Don't buy imported avocados, bananas, coconuts. Buy locally sourced meat. Get whole chickens and eat everything. Make a stock from the leftovers. Buy organic cotton clothing. Or figure out what clothing you can get that's locally produced. Buy furniture from a local furniture craftsman. Don't replace things that aren't broken. Don't go to McDonald's, go to a local burger restaurant that doesn't import 'Irish grass fed beef'. Take a train to a vacation destination nearby.

For some of us, all of this may be obvious, but for the majority of people it isn't. And as long as we keep blaming companies and then sit back, nothing will ever change.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#233
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, actually doing something about it takes effort/investment from everyone, not just government and corporations. This is pretty much the standard line corporations throw out to try and shirk responsibility. This is why they've always been so keen on recycling relative to other, more effective methods, for instance. The implicit message is that rather than the company being forced to change by fiat, "people" just…

> This is pretty much the standard line corporations throw out to try and shirk responsibility. This is why they've always been so keen on recycling relative to other, more effective methods, for instance. Yes, but this is only part of it and once again is an easy way to blame corporations. It's not just easy for them to tell people to recycle. It's also really easy for people to recycle and feel good about themselve…

>is an easy way to blame corporations

It really isn't. The 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions have a massively outsized impact on the climate. They have got exceptional PR and have done a spectacular job of diffusing their responsibilities and protecting their bottom lines at the expense of the planet.

It's easy to buy into their propaganda though.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#234
Wow. I both respect this post, while being annoyed at its direction. It is very respectful in the intro, by explicitly not trying to be attacks against the critics. However, it then is entreating the readers to pick a side for most of the rest.

I assert that you should not pick a side. Instead, you should look at how you can add to and learn from the data. Odds are high that both sides have some points that are worth picking up, such that picking a side is almost certainly shutting you out of some good ideas.

My personal push would be to say that claiming mental health became a problem in 2010s is absurd. It has long been a problem, as evidenced by such easy examples as Columbine. Before that, it was likely a largely local problem. In that you didn't hear about the kids that were having trouble, but they were there.

Does this contradict the assertions of the troubles of social media? I don't think so. Just don't think you have shielded your kids from all modern sources of mental ill by simply keeping them away from social media.

This is like thinking that drinking coffee or wine is de facto healthy for you. Likely, the health benefits are as much on what you were not drinking instead. Such that, keeping kids from social media by keeping them engaged with others around them is likely a net positive. By how much of that is keeping them engaged in a participatory way, versus keeping them apart? Such that, if you can get them engaging with things in a healthy way, you can make everyone in that area healthier. You can see this with online groups that are healthy. Yes, there will be some level of banning, as we all have capacities. But the healthy crowds engage. They don't just shout down. Even when they have to deal with people shouting, attempts are made to moderate.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#235
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not playing the victim. Taking responsibility for your circumstances, no matter how shit of a hand you were dealt. Basically, gaslight yourself into believing that other peoples actions are your fault? Sometimes you are in fact a victim of something, no matter how uncomfortable that thought makes Haidt feel. > Sometimes things suck, and sometimes things are sad, and that’s okay. Common notion in many cultures is yo…

This is a very uncharitable interpretation. If anything, parent is saying that staying engaged and not giving up just because an issue came up, is a positive, valuable and, most importantly, not passive at all. In other words, if you can't even deal with the problem you received, how are you even begin to 'improve things' overall? You can't even handle your own circumstance to a reasonable degree. It is easy to gener…

> This is a very uncharitable interpretation. If anything, parent is saying that staying engaged and not giving up just because an issue came up, is a positive, valuable and, most importantly, not passive at all. In other words, if you can't even deal with the problem you received, how are you even begin to 'improve things' overall?

It is not uncharitable interpretation. It is exactly what it means. What the cultures that internalized "can’t know happiness without sadness, light without darkness" have in common is that they are not trying to improve those things. Often for good reasons - the political system or powers to be prevents improvement. But, what cultures that improve things have in common is that they are not happy about stuff they want to improve.

> Is it maybe because it seems to have better outcomes?

They did not. Societies with "father is the disciplinarian mother is not" thing had larger social issues then us - juvenile criminality, alcoholism, smoking, you name it. Fun fact: it was prevalent in Weimar Republic and they were as disordered as it gets.

> Is having a dad and a mom so bad that you cannot accept those positive outcomes ( and I can easily grant there are bad ones as well )?

This is beyond uncharitable interpretation and in the realm of "completely twisting what I said". Having both parents does not imply what you wrote at all.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes tech does fundamentally change this. Prior to social media, the set of everyone’s gang options was defined by a relatively small geographic area. This means people were largely looking at and likely caring about the same reality, same set of problems, same considerations around the problem, same individuals in mind, etc. Now you have people forming quasi-religious conviction on issues that are not directly releva…

Yeah... but alternatively you can easily find a group of like minded people. I suppose you could argue this just fractures society more though. People migrate off into groups of others they agree with and don't even bother trying to coexist anymore.

Correct. It’s certainly not without its benefits, but even those have an insidious side.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#237

Just to levy a single criticism among several: I find Haidt’s rebuttal of the climate change hypothesis unconvincing: fears around climate change are not “energizing” in the way that prior crises are, in a significant part because public sentiment around climate change is that we’re already doomed in a way that isn’t really possible with social crises. Similarly: I don’t think most teenage girls were voraciously read…

Your comment reminded me of the five general narratives we regularly tell ourselves about technology. 1) Technology is bad 2) Technology is good 3) Technology causes social change (tech determinism) 4) Social forces shape technology (social constructivism) 5) Technology is an accelerant Essentially all stories of technology and society fall into one of these narratives. The most rare is #5, yet as you argue in this c…

Yes, exactly. If I had to be florid, I’d say that Haidt is blaming the wind for the fire: he’s confusing the thing that accelerates underlying social ills and instabilities for things themselves. This resembles his own “map and territory” claims about those responding to him.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#238
post #234

Wow. I both respect this post, while being annoyed at its direction. It is very respectful in the intro, by explicitly not trying to be attacks against the critics. However, it then is entreating the readers to pick a side for most of the rest. I assert that you should not pick a side. Instead, you should look at how you can add to and learn from the data. Odds are high that both sides have some points that are worth…

But the author isn't arguing that mental health only became a problem in 2010, if I understand your post correctly. They're claiming it became more of a problem because of social media use, particularly among girls, no?

If by "Columbine" you're referring to the shooting, then that's only a US thing and doesn't apply to other countries.

Re: Why some researchers think I’m wrong about social media and mental illness

#239

> In social media research, we focus on “how much social media did a person consume?” and we plan our experiments accordingly...Most don’t even distinguish between platforms, as if Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, and TikTok are just different kinds of liquor. This is the problem I have with studies of "social media". It's like saying "the internet" causes problem, or "computers". These are overly broad categories and…

This is a great point and it's where I struggle to moderate my own social media consumption.

Is aimlessly scrolling my twitter feed a net benefit to my overall mood and well being? I'm 95% sure it's not.

Is spending 20-30 minutes browsing hacker news every morning a net benefit to my overall mood and well being? I'm not sure.

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