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Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

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Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#261

Post by Lio »

Here's a related story I was told[0]:

Ships began using centre-mounted, bladed rudders so that they could be more easily docked at the Hanseatic League port of Ipswich in England.

It seems obvious to put a rudder at the centre of a boat now but prior to this development rudders were mounted on the starboard (steering) side. That's where a steering oar would naturally enter the water when the man holding is standing on the centre line of the boat. They just copied that position when they first added bladed rudders.

Specifically they moved the rudder to the centre so that they could more easily turn around in the Orwell[1] estuary. Something to do with Ipswich's port being on the opposite side of the river to most other ports in the region.

The earliest known depiction of a centre-mounted, bladed rudder is on an 11th century seal of the town now in the Royal Greenwich Museum[2].

To this day the town's crest features three centre mounted rudders and a lion[3].

It's a fun story but do take it with pinch of salt as I can't verify it. :)

-

0. On a history tour by an old chap with an impenetrable Suffolk accent. Not sure if that counts as a good source of truth but it was certainly entertaining.

1. Another fun bit of trivia, that's the river that George Orwell named himself after.

2. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-64185

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich#/media/File:Coat_of_Ar...

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#262

Post by lostlogin »

leipert wrote: post #181
knifie_spoonie wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the shifting pattern is exactly the same.

Sibling comment mentions indicators and wipers being switched. Anecdote 1) In NZ I saw a car in the middle of a busy roundabout, wipers on, passengers visibly confused and crying. Anecdote 2) A kayak guide also mentioned, that if you see someone entering a roundabout, windshield wiping, on a sunny day, you just wait and let them do their thing. Anecdote 3) After a month in NZ I came back to Germany and actually muscl…

Pamure roundabout and Royal Oak roundabouts in Auckland are interesting.

Royal Oak has an ice cream parlour with a good view of the carnage.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#263

Post by saalweachter »

hutzlibu wrote: post #229
dotancohen wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In geography left and right banks of a river are always in the direction of the flow Isn't there some river where the flow goes either way depending on tide? I'm thinking it might be in Alaska, but there might be more than one.

There are surely more than one, but this happens only close to the sea and the general flow of the river is still into the sea.

The Hudson River is tidal up past Poughkeepsie.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#264

Post by usrbinbash »

rcthompson wrote: post #158
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

The advantage of using separate words for the frame of reference of the boat is that you can still use left and right with their normal meanings as well.

But I can also say:

"I'm on the left side of the boat, and hold an apple in my left hand." The boat has a clearly distinguishable bow and stern, so it provides a frame of reference.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#265

Post by Steve44 »

jdietrich wrote: post #130
abhibeckert wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective In (musical) theatre we do it the other way around. The we call it "stage left" and "stage right" or "SL and SR" since we use abbreviations everywhere in our notes. It's always from the "stage manager's perspective" which is traditionally (but not always…

In the automotive trade, a vehicle has a "driver's side" and "passenger side". This only partly solves the ambiguity, because of course some countries drive on the left.

In the UK I was taught off-side and near side which referred to the sides nearest and away from the kerb as you are driving. That would be localised to which side of the road your location drives on, but not affected by left or right hand drive.

I still use is when checking tyre pressures for example, they are handy and unambiguous acronyms. For example Off Side Front ( OSF ) would be the drivers side front mostly.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#266

Post by lostlogin »

kqr wrote: post #175
zarzavat wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is that when a patient comes to a doctor they will say they have a pain in their left side, without further qualification. So it makes sense to center the entire terminology around that situation. Otherwise doctors would constantly be having to do error-prone conversions.

Well, that and also doctors can walk around patients they are examining, e.g. auscultation of the lungs on the back.

Doctors examine patients?

I thought they just sent them to radiology?

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#267

Post by narrator »

jjav wrote: post #191
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

> Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat. Understatement of the week... pretty much everything on a boat has a different word for it. Often for practical reasons, sometimes purely traditional reasons. It is nice because it binds one to nautical tradition leading back centuries/millenia.

One interesting thing about middle ages technologies, like boats, is that the words in the different romance languages for things invented in this era are very different from each other. For example, in Spanish boat words like port and starboard are totally different[1]. Other examples of middle ages words that are very different: windmill = molino, wheelbarrow = carretilla.

Words that refer to older things have more latin roots and are thus similar. Very newly created words also are similar because of all the english loan words. E.g computer= la computadora.

[1] https://www.spanish.academy/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-nauti...

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#268

Post by Fradow »

jdietrich wrote: post #130
abhibeckert wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective In (musical) theatre we do it the other way around. The we call it "stage left" and "stage right" or "SL and SR" since we use abbreviations everywhere in our notes. It's always from the "stage manager's perspective" which is traditionally (but not always…

In the automotive trade, a vehicle has a "driver's side" and "passenger side". This only partly solves the ambiguity, because of course some countries drive on the left.

It's a whole lot of weirdness, especially since most interactions in English language on the internet will be with either US or UK people.

Sometimes, you want to use passenger/driver side: for example, on my car, brake flushing procedure is always rear passenger first, no matter driving side.

And sometime you want to use left/right, which is always assumed to be according to the driver's position (so it's reversed when facing the engine), because some things aren't reversed, no matter the driving side: for example, on my car, the BCM and hood latch are always on the right side (which makes it inconvenient to open the hood for a left-side driving car).

P.S.: how do I know for certain? A friend has the exact same model but with opposite driving position because it's a UK import.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#269

Post by Xylakant »

stonemetal12 wrote: post #74
Xylakant wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fairly confident that the “bow” in that case is always the direction of travel in this case and that starboard/port side change. The lighting scheme on ships indicates the starboard side with a green light and the port side with a red light. This allows ships to figure out which way another ship is heading - especially at night. If you can see the red light on the left and green on the right while facing the othe…

Pretty much every boat with onboard motors are capable of reversing thrust. Do they all switch like that when traveling in reverse? (Serious question, not a boat person, never been on a boat that wasn't a ferry )

“Normal” boats only go in reverse when they are maneuvering, never for extended distances and at travel speeds. Unless they’re purpose built they never travel in reverse - rudders are less efficient if going reverse, propellers are as well, and hulls are shaped to reduce drag when going forward.

You’ll basically only see boats going in reverse in harbors or exceptional circumstances. In harbors, speeds are generally low and extra caution is required of all ships. For exceptional circumstances, you’ll have special ways of communicating this - specific lighting patterns, flags, horns to warn others.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#270

Post by Steve44 »

dotancohen wrote: post #224
azepoi wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In french theatre has specific words for left and right. Côté cour et Côté jardin. Courtside and garden side. In geography left and right banks of a river are always in the direction of the flow

> In geography left and right banks of a river are always in the direction of the flow Isn't there some river where the flow goes either way depending on tide? I'm thinking it might be in Alaska, but there might be more than one.

The Thames is tidal in London so the water does 'flow' both ways, but I'm fairly sure you'd say it flows towards the river but London is on a tidal section.
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