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Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

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Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#171
post #102
post #36

It's funny to me that some olaf 1000 years ago just called them what they were; the steering side and the docking side, and now we have to use the same words which don't make any sense to us. I vote we just call them the steering-side and the docking-side again.

My understanding is that port’s usage is somewhat recent. In the English sailing world the opposite of starboard was larboard. The royal navy made the change within the last few hundred years.

One of the fun things I learned when reading master and commander was this.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#172
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the approach taken in some Australian native languages, e.g. [1], where they use absolute directions instead of relative directions, so they would call what we call the port side of a boat the north side if the boat was heading east, and call it the west side if the boat was heading north. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuuk_Thaayorre_language

There's a few other languages that do this (as the primary version. Most languages mix)[0]. In fact there's 3 main classes: - relative: in relation to the viewer (e.g. The mouse is to my right) - absolute: using some coordinate system, such as cardinal (e.g. Plant is on the North side of the room) - intrinsic: relative, but with respect to another object and not the viewer (e.g. the TV is on top of the TV stand which…

FWIW, if you read the literature closely, Kuuk Thaayorre is also mixed. They have words for left and right and use them to describe relative orientation, notwithstanding the emphasis on cardinal directions. A related language, Guugu Yimithirr, does seem to completely lack use of left and right to describe spatial orientation; it has the words--similar to Kuuk Thaayorre, words identifying left and right hand/arm--but it doesn't extend them figuratively as Kuuk Thaayorre does. (They both extend other body-related orientation terminology, e.g. to describe being ahead or behind something or someone.) However, Guugo Yimithirr seems to heavily rely on hand and body gestures to help establish relative orientation of the subject or object. Reading the literature, I don't think Guugo Yimithirr would be capable of adequately conveying direction and orientation over the telephone.

Alot of the literature also makes hay about these language speakers having preternatural skills at maintaining a cardinal orientation mentally. I don't doubt they're good at it, but I suspect that that skill is something that has only recently become uncommon in the industrialized world. As a kid growing up in the U.S., being able to keep track of cardinal orientation was something I understood as a skill expected of men, and not by tracking the sun or consciously using other obvious markers. It was quite obviously a vestigial gendered skill at that point--noteworthy if you had any proficiency at it--but clearly one within recent memory of male adults. Moreover, AFAIU, there's also research showing that Americans tend to use cardinal directions and navigation more than many European countries, presumably related to our lived geography.

Interestingly, the literature on Guugu Yimithirr says that cardinal orientation accuracy relative to the Earth is much better the further away the described location. For descriptions closer to home (i.e. the central city/village of the group), accuracy was often off by 30+ degrees, seemingly because cardinal orientation is more dominated by familiar local topographic features. Moreover, IIRC, it seems cardinal direction isn't absolute in these languages. Which, at least intuitively, makes alot of sense to me. For example, the Bay Area is askew; when giving directions "north" is closer to north-west (middle peninsula, East Bay) or north-by-north-west (city), but everybody (conscious or not) is very consistent about the rotation and bending.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#173
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 1st gear still in the top left position?

Yes, the shifting pattern is exactly the same.

But usually the wipers and indicator controls are reversed, which can be embarrassing.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#174
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In medicine there is one obviously very important perspective, and in theatre two. But mariners still need words for relative left and right directions all around them, like "the preferred channel is to the left of the buoy" (the channel and the buoy don't have port or starboard sides, and it wouldn't be useful to communicate about their relative angle as seen by the boat's crew).

>like "the preferred channel is to the left of the buoy" While this is true, we (at least in England) would normally say "leave the buoy to starboard" (though when racing we'd call it a 'mark' rather than a buoy). Perhaps it's habit, I'm not sure, but it's generally unambiguous.

Same in the US. But only if you were actually going there, not if you're just describing what's around you!

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. As a random example, you'll see that although the lungs are seen from the perspective of a doctor facing a patient, they are labelled left/right from the patient's perspective: https://www.therespiratorysystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2017...

The reason is that when a patient comes to a doctor they will say they have a pain in their left side, without further qualification. So it makes sense to center the entire terminology around that situation. Otherwise doctors would constantly be having to do error-prone conversions.

Well, that and also doctors can walk around patients they are examining, e.g. auscultation of the lungs on the back.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#176
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask a farmer for directions. In my experience it's more likely they will tell you to turn north/south/east/west than left or right.

Maybe in the US and other places that have a grid system as their main road planning principle and route naming principle? In Europe, where roads tend to follow the terrain more, I've not really heard this.

The US doesn't really have a (consistent) grid system outside of cities, with the notable exception of Utah (due to planning efforts by the Mormon pioneers). And even in cities it can be a mess. For example Seattle grew from three different smaller areas that all planned their roads to be parallel to the coast. The problem is the coast isn't in a straight line so as they grew and combined into a single city it created a lot of awkward intersections where the roads meet.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#177
post #2

"Driver" and "passenger" side for cars. Oh wait, doesn't work in England etc. I guess for ships there is no variation between countries? Starboard is presumably where the wheel was so everyone must have left it on the right side?

I've always assumed that "driver" and "passenger" were simply reversed for England, etc. I'd reverse it for postal trucks, after all, or cars imported from England and such.

In the UK the (possibly?) more common terms are nearside (kerb side) and offside (road side).

It's maybe better than "driver" and "passenger side" because it still makes sense when you're driving a car with different "handedness" to your current road network.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but this article explains what each word means. Starboard => Means "steering side of the boat" (b/c the oar was on the right side due to sailors mostly being right handed) Port => The side that faces the port when docked

You can dock a boat anyway you like, or have been instructed to do so by the dockmaster.

Passenger vessels typically dock port side to the dock. Same with aircraft.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#179

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

Your medical comment reminded me of the fascinating constellation of terminology used to identify locations and orientations in anatomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location Some of the terms: dorsal/ventral, proximal/distal, anterior/posterior, superior/inferior, oral/aboral, basal/apical When you're describing something like a microbe, the terms get fairly arbitrary; which is the "head" end of…

And dentists talking about tooth faces have buccal (cheek-side), lingual (tongue side), occlusal (chewing surface), mesial (side closest to center), and distal (the other side from mesial).

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the shifting pattern is exactly the same.

But usually the wipers and indicator controls are reversed, which can be embarrassing.

And it's not always reversed! Australian-made and Japanese-made cars tend to have indicator on the right stalk, and wipers on the left. European cars tend to have indicators on the left stalk, and wipers on the right. But not always!

Case in point: my wife and I live in Australia (have done so all our lives), and my wife had a 2008 Ford Focus, made in South Africa (a RHD country). Indicator stalk was on the left, wiper on the right (aka "European" style). She then upgraded to a 2020 Ford Focus, made in Germany (it's the wagon model), and the wiper is on the left, indicator on the right. Which confuses me, as I drive a BMW, which has indicators on the left and wipers on the right.

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