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Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

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Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#81

Post by rng_civ »

taeric wrote: post #23
lesuorac wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you own a car? Commonly when speaking with a mechanic they'll ask questions like Driver's side or Passenger's side to get away from left/right. People very often describe things with just _left_ or just _right_. They don't say things like when I'm sitting in the car the door to my left is hard to open. They just say the left door is broken even when both them and the mechanic are facing the car head on. By having…

You aren't wrong. In that mistakes can be made. But if I ask you about your left hand, is that ambiguous? By your definition here, that is an ambiguous question. But, that just feels wrong. Edit: I'll note that it is amusing to compare to cars. It seems the etymology of the terms is literally "driver side".

It's not ambiguous because you have a directional reference built into the phrase and speaking directly to a singular person: "ask you about your left hand".

It is certainly clear if one would say "left facing stern" or "left facing aft", but that's a mouthful when you can just shorten it (and the reference facing direction is not relevant). Bonus points if the shortened version can't be mistaken for another direction...

BTW, I'm 100% down for introducing dedicated words for "my left", "your left" etc vs just "on the left". It would certainly save me a bit of time when my family asks me to look for something and they flip between the two meanings in the same sentence.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#82

Post by uoaei »

taeric wrote: post #6

This explanation feels kind of awkward. My left hand does not depend on my orientation, so I am unclear why the "left side" of a boat would. I get why there are better terms to use when talking about others. At least, I think I do. But it feels like there is more history to these terms than just "needs to be fixed."

There is no "left", there is only "your left" or "my left".

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#83

Post by toast0 »

dceddia wrote: post #70
taeric wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per another thread, this may not be the case for ferries? At least not for ones that don't turn around. (Note that many "people ferry" boats are able to turn around. Larger car ferries are fully symmetric and have no fixed bow/stern. Edit: I found more discussion on this by searching for "double ended" boats. Port/starboard do indeed change depending on the direction of travel from all results I've found.

Hmm interesting. Wonder if they have some non-symmetrical parts, like the location of the engine maybe?

Sure. If nothing else, they've got labels on 'end 1' and 'end 2', and the rest of the boat is labeled into quadrants that don't change (A-D). If there's a galley, that's on one end or the other; the passenger deck is assymmetric.

The car decks and the sundeck appear to be mostly symmetric other than labelling, and maybe elevator placement? The machinery under the car decks is likely somewhat assymetric too, but I've never gotten to go down below.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#84

Post by quenched »

binarymax wrote: post #13
taeric wrote: post #6

This explanation feels kind of awkward. My left hand does not depend on my orientation, so I am unclear why the "left side" of a boat would. I get why there are better terms to use when talking about others. At least, I think I do. But it feels like there is more history to these terms than just "needs to be fixed."

Because left and right are ambiguous - are you talking about MY left or the boat’s left? Having unambiguous names let’s us differentiate and avoid confusion. It might be hard to grok the need for this if you’ve never been in a tight spot while sailing or operating a watercraft with a crew - but having this distinction has probably saved thousands of bad incidents from happening.

There's a similar issue in medical imaging, when oriented with the patient "facing you". Then my left is patient right and vice versa.

This is why in the days of processed x-ray films, TV shows would more commonly hang a chest x-ray incorrectly[1], with the (patient's) "left" label on the left instead of the right. It's less common now that the example imaging is digital.

[1] https://screenrant.com/scrubs-xray-gag-joke-deeper-meaning/

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#85

Post by [deleted] »

gkoberger wrote: post #34
fishtoaster wrote: post #26

Because you need to differentiate between "my left when facing the boat" and "my left when on the boat facing forward" or really, left from any other perspective. And any time there's a multi-word phrase like that that gets used a lot over many years, it gets shortened.

Of course, but this article explains what each word means. Starboard => Means "steering side of the boat" (b/c the oar was on the right side due to sailors mostly being right handed) Port => The side that faces the port when docked

[deleted]

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#86

Post by jprete »

stonemetal12 wrote: post #74
Xylakant wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fairly confident that the “bow” in that case is always the direction of travel in this case and that starboard/port side change. The lighting scheme on ships indicates the starboard side with a green light and the port side with a red light. This allows ships to figure out which way another ship is heading - especially at night. If you can see the red light on the left and green on the right while facing the othe…

Pretty much every boat with onboard motors are capable of reversing thrust. Do they all switch like that when traveling in reverse? (Serious question, not a boat person, never been on a boat that wasn't a ferry )

I don’t think boats travel in reverse very often because it’s inefficient to do so. If the boat is going in reverse, it’s probably docking, maneuvering, or having problems. In any of those cases, the crew should be situationally aware enough, and the boat slow enough, that they don’t need color-coded lights to keep themselves from causing a collision.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#87

Post by taeric »

twawaaay wrote: post #77
drewrv wrote: post #8

I understand that the terms are mostly unambiguous, but I always wonder how these get defined in edge cases. For example ferries, at least where I live, alternate the direction of travel as they go back and forth. There isn't a fixed "bow" or "stern" from which to define port and starboard.

The thing to remember is that those directions are used for an awful number of things that have nothing to do with the ship moving. Like when you name places for storing things or various pieces of equipment. Changing those names would create a lot of mayhem. When I captain a boat it is more important for me to communicate things unequivocally. I need to be able to specify what I want to happen, precisely. The crew d…

Though, as it turns out, double-ended craft are defined by the direction they are operating.

I'm curious on other items that are defined in this way. Is does make sense that broad rules are lifted for obvious reasons. Is why I can name a few things where screw threading is reversed from what we typically use.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#88

Post by quenched »

wpietri wrote: post #67
lsaferite wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In English "right" is one syllable and "starboard" is two. All things considered, using right/left is more concise. If you are aware enough of your orientation on a boat to know where port and starboard are located, you are also aware enough to know where left and right are located.

Concision is way less important than clarity.

Eg if you're trying to shout over the wind.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#89

Post by antognini »

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.)

At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective. You could imagine that the maritime world could have gone with a similar convention. But the downside is that on very rare occasions someone along the way gets confused and the doctor operates on the wrong side of the body.

The theatrical world takes an intermediate approach, where they use the terms "stage left / stage right", which always refer to the perspective of an actor onstage facing the audience. Then the word "stage" tells you the perspective, but you still keep the words left/right so you don't have to memorize two completely separate words.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#90

Post by hooverd »

lsaferite wrote: post #47
CardenB wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not distracting. There are many intense situations on a boat, and a crew is required to cooperate in order to survive. This means you must have extremely precise wording to quickly explain what needs to be done. This vocabulary is important for this reason, and is able to sharpen focus, rather than distract. It requires a process of learning, and that is intentional.

In English "right" is one syllable and "starboard" is two. All things considered, using right/left is more concise. If you are aware enough of your orientation on a boat to know where port and starboard are located, you are also aware enough to know where left and right are located.

I'd bet port and starboard are easier to communicate unambiguously than left and right. Absolute positioning, one syllable vs two, different ending sounds vs both ending a "tuh" sound.
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