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What Level Programmer Are You?

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Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#11

Post by uberPhil »

Maro wrote: post #5
uberPhil wrote: post #2

I personally don't like the idea of "levels", especially with programming. IMO it adds to the "I'm better then you cause I do xyz code" mindset which seems to get adopted more and more each day. It actually almost turns me off and makes me not want to participate in the community. Perhaps that mindset is more common among those in the valley or other tech "hot" areas. But around here, Washington DC, if you know Peopl…

So you're saying that Washington DC and Silicon Valley are different bubbles. @uberPhil: I'm in Hungary, so I'm not a bubble boy =)

Pretty much.. But my bubble is better then your bubble! :).

FWIW I am a "programmer".

This list also doesn't take necessity into account. Is "A" programmer better then "B" programmer if "B" programmer has never had to derive their own programming language while "A" programmer had this requirement or need?

This entire concept is just silly to me.

Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#12

Post by pilot_pirx »

Personally I see this as a permanent cycle where I'm on different levels for different things all the time. With some languages I'm on a high level, with others on a low one. Even within languages I know very well, there are parts I didn't use that much. Same for many other things like commandline tools, frameworks, api, databases. Often enough I go down on a lower level and for example work through a beginners tutorial just to have a reason to use a few things in Ruby on Rails which I don't use often enough in everyday work. Or simply to go through the cycle of setting up a developer machine with rvm, RoR, some gems, git, github. All this more as a kind of programming kata than because there would be any need.

Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#13

Post by kenrik »

steve8918 wrote: post #6
uberPhil wrote: post #2

I personally don't like the idea of "levels", especially with programming. IMO it adds to the "I'm better then you cause I do xyz code" mindset which seems to get adopted more and more each day. It actually almost turns me off and makes me not want to participate in the community. Perhaps that mindset is more common among those in the valley or other tech "hot" areas. But around here, Washington DC, if you know Peopl…

Actually I've found that in Silicon Valley, no one cares about quantifying programming levels, and care more about what you did and what you know. When I applied for jobs on the East Coast, they all seemed to want things like GPA (even though I'd been out of school for 15+ years), and especially results from programming tests like Brainbench.

I know SQL/.Net Gurus that have never made anything for themselves. Destined to live in Corporate IT forever drudging along day to day.

Just because they reached a certain level does not guarantee they will ever make something meaningful, What a shame.

Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#14

Post by uberPhil »

brildum wrote: post #7
uberPhil wrote: post #2

I personally don't like the idea of "levels", especially with programming. IMO it adds to the "I'm better then you cause I do xyz code" mindset which seems to get adopted more and more each day. It actually almost turns me off and makes me not want to participate in the community. Perhaps that mindset is more common among those in the valley or other tech "hot" areas. But around here, Washington DC, if you know Peopl…

If you increase your skill/knowledge that doesn't hinder your ability to use PeopleSoft/SharePoint. It certainly expands your options. While you can get a good salary using those technologies, eventually they will be obsolete. When that happens, we'll start to see news stories posted on some future-HN about how older IT workers are being passed up for younger, fresher IT workers and how it is a biased industry. When…

Or it could just be that the younger crowd is using the tech that is popular today, therefore they are in higher demand.

10 years from now some next best thing will replace Ruby and the cycle continues..

As in my original post, the issue I have is the concept of knowing how to write your own language being considered a HIGHER skill then someone knowing Sharepoint or visual basic in depth.

Who's right is it to say that my particular skill is better or higher then yours..

Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#15

Post by DanielBMarkham »

mrspeaker wrote: post #10

I think there should be a level "I believe I've reached a level where I can speak wisely about programming ability". Followed by the "Oh, oops. Now I see I STILL know nothing" level. ;)

Of course, the problem here is that by making that statement, you are both trying to wisely speak about programming ability while still claiming it's mostly unknown to you. Both bases effectively covered. Score! :)

It's just a blog entry with observations. I make no claim on being an expert or creating the next standard. Just throwing some ideas out. I knew this would generate a bit of a stir on HN, so I thought it would be fun. What can I say? I like putting out ideas and having people throw rocks at them. If the criticism is poor, then I know I'm on to something.

Having said all that, I think there is a level of symbols, symbol assembly, and abstraction involved, even if I did a poor job of grouping them together for this entry. Writing your own language is dealing with a problem from about 3 or 4 meta levels away. It's nothing like simple scripting. There has to be some kind of natural level involved there.

EDIT: I restated the programming levels in a really short list posted to HN here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3562422

I think this might be a case where more words are worse. That is, by providing concrete examples it just gave people a bunch of stuff to complain about. Hopefully the follow-up put it in generic enough terms to be more tractable.

Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#16

Post by brildum »

uberPhil wrote: post #14
brildum wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you increase your skill/knowledge that doesn't hinder your ability to use PeopleSoft/SharePoint. It certainly expands your options. While you can get a good salary using those technologies, eventually they will be obsolete. When that happens, we'll start to see news stories posted on some future-HN about how older IT workers are being passed up for younger, fresher IT workers and how it is a biased industry. When…

Or it could just be that the younger crowd is using the tech that is popular today, therefore they are in higher demand. 10 years from now some next best thing will replace Ruby and the cycle continues.. As in my original post, the issue I have is the concept of knowing how to write your own language being considered a HIGHER skill then someone knowing Sharepoint or visual basic in depth. Who's right is it to say tha…

Knowing how hardware works, how languages are compiled/designed, how libraries are architected. It can only increase your knowledge of [insert technology here].

I think you're confusing "Levels" with A > B (A is better than B) when in reality the point is that: A comes after B. You must first understand B, then you can move on to the next level in your path of understanding programming.

Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#17

Post by itmag »

I would say I'm close to 7, with a lot of peeking ahead toward levels 8 and 9.

It's an interesting way to look at prowess. Instead of looking at specific languages/technologies, we look at the progression of understanding. Ie how rich, efficient, and effective the programmer's mental model is.

What's a good salary aspiration for someone at this level who's situated in Sweden? I am currently making nowhere NEAR the ludicrous fantasy sums (ie $100k+) that you Americans consider to be a human right but I'm thinking I could aim higher.

Maybe I could use this level-based thinking when discussing salaries with employers?

Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#18

Post by eykanal »

I disagree with the premise of this article. By trying to differentiate the different "programmers" by nothing other than their skill, he is ignoring the fact that you simply shouldn't group together low-level chipset programmers with PHP programmers with LABview drag-and-drop-individual-components programmers with computer scientists who also happen to be programmers. These people are fundamentally different, and trying to say that they are all the same and only differ in "programming experience" is fundamentally missing the boat on these distinctions.

Re: What Level Programmer Are You?

#19

Post by tnuc »

I am always a bit perturbed by lists such as this.

I have worked with people that would be categorized as a "script kiddie" and the work they put out is far more useful than what has been done by someone who has a doctorate in computer science.

I'd much rather employ someone who can get stuff done rather than someone who knows everything yet does next to nothing. The man driving the delivery truck is a lot more useful than the worlds best nascar driver.

My level: Some days I wonder if I am even a level 1 by this list.

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